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Author Topic:   How does God make this justice happen?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 16 of 61 (457556)
02-24-2008 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by willietdog
02-23-2008 11:44 PM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
he didn't kill us because he loved us. he loved us, but because we were rebellious he had to kill us.
"I love her, but because she talked back, I had to slap her across the face."
Blaming the victim doesn't work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by willietdog, posted 02-23-2008 11:44 PM willietdog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by willietdog, posted 02-25-2008 6:53 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 17 of 61 (457587)
02-24-2008 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by willietdog
02-23-2008 11:44 PM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
Not what a God should or would do.
There is no justification for genocide.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by willietdog, posted 02-23-2008 11:44 PM willietdog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by willietdog, posted 02-25-2008 7:01 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
willietdog
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 61 (457837)
02-25-2008 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Rahvin
02-24-2008 1:05 AM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
"I love her, but because she talked back, I had to slap her across the face."
Actually, Rahvin, you provided the perfect example, even if you didn't mean too. Here's another.
Some guy is caught speeding. He is given a fine and goes to court over it. The judge is this kids father. He says, "Son, I tell you what I'll do, by law I must fine you x amount, but, because I'm your father, I'll pay it for you, IF you are sorry for what you did." If he said "I'm not sorry." he must pay a fine. That is the example for a non-Christian. Only in God's case, the penalty is death. If the son says he's sorry, the price is paid. Jesus paid our price when he died for us. Being the world was plunged into sin from the initial sin of one perfect man (Adam), the death of one perfect man (Jesus) paid for the sin.
The person you call a victim is not a victim, but a criminal. We as humans give the death sentence to criminals, but do we blame the judge. you can blame the "victim" because it was their fault. They committed the crime, they refused the offer for salvation, what else is there to do but punish them.

This message is a reply to:
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willietdog
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 61 (457840)
02-25-2008 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Greatest I am
02-24-2008 9:34 AM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
Greatest I am writes:
Not what a God should or would do.
There is no justification for genocide.
Regards
DL
God can punish people however he feels like it. God is God, he gave you life if he feels like it he can take it away. Sin=Death In the end God is the one that decides when you die. Some times he decides he's going to end many peoples life at the same time. Genocide is a human concept. To God we are just individuals and death is just the passing on to a new place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Greatest I am, posted 02-24-2008 9:34 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Greatest I am, posted 02-26-2008 10:28 AM willietdog has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 20 of 61 (457914)
02-26-2008 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by willietdog
02-25-2008 7:01 PM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
So your god shows us how to venerate life by killing it in huge numbers including wicked children and babies.
He shows us how good His laws are by breaking them.
God's motivations would be no better than Hitler's in such a case.
Strange that you follow such an evil god who cannot even come up with a better option for His victims than making himself look like a genocidal maniac and fool.
Enjoy your foolish inept god.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Raphael, posted 02-26-2008 12:57 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 21 of 61 (457940)
02-26-2008 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Greatest I am
02-26-2008 10:28 AM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
GIA said:
So your god shows us how to venerate life by killing it in huge numbers including wicked children and babies.
We dont know if there even were babies, but since there probably were, they would just grow up to be sinful, corrupted, hateful disgraces of human beings. I'm sure it pained God's heart to do what He did, and genocide: (-noun. the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.)
God was not killing the people BECAUSE they were people, or Jews, or Black, or Mexican, or whatever, he didnt kill them BECAUSE of what they WERE. He did it because of their disregard of His law, the Law of God, and their choice to follow Sin instead of God.
He shows us how good His laws are by breaking them.
What are you talking about? What law was he breaking?
God's motivations would be no better than Hitler's in such a case.
What a terrible thing to say. There are two distinct differences betwee God and Hitler. One, God is God, the Almighty Creator of the Universe, Hitler was a racist, genocidal maniac. Second, Hitler killed the Jews(and other racial and social outcasts) BECAUSE they were Jews etc, God killed them because they chose the way of death. God didnt create the world to be a Cesspool of Evil. When you build a castle of blocks, its your right, as its creator, if you dont like what you made, you can demolish it and start over, as it is God's right to do whatever He sees fit with His creations.
Strange that you follow such an evil god who cannot even come up with a better option for His victims than making himself look like a genocidal maniac and fool.
You cannot accuse God of Sin, Sin and God cannot exist together, and its impossible for God to do anything wrong.
Raph

Truth is still Truth, Whether One or a Thousand People believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Greatest I am, posted 02-26-2008 10:28 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 02-26-2008 1:44 PM Raphael has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 22 of 61 (457946)
02-26-2008 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Raphael
02-26-2008 12:57 PM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
So when God kills us it is not wrong.
It is OK for Him to break His own law against killing.
Even He admited and repented for His actions. Was He wrong then to repent.
Was He wrong to brand His own actions as evil and swear to not hurt man anymore?
Let us all justify genocide. God would like this.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Raphael, posted 02-26-2008 12:57 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Raphael, posted 02-26-2008 10:01 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 23 of 61 (458038)
02-26-2008 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Greatest I am
02-26-2008 1:44 PM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
GIA said:
It is OK for Him to break His own law against killing.
There is no law against killing. The Ten Commandments says "Thou Shalt not Murder", not "Thou Shalt Not Kill". The world was a cesspool of Sin, why not erase the painting and redraw it?
Even He admited and repented for His actions. Was He wrong then to repent.
I dont remember Him actually repenting. Chapter and Verse please.
Was He wrong to brand His own actions as evil and swear to not hurt man anymore?
He didnt brand His actions as evil, because God cannot do evil. He just said He wouldn't do it again.
Let us all justify genocide. God would like this.
Its not a justification of genocide, its not even genocide.(reference the defintion)
Raph

Truth is still Truth, Whether One or a Thousand People believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Greatest I am, posted 02-26-2008 1:44 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 10:50 PM Raphael has not replied
 Message 25 by Greatest I am, posted 02-27-2008 8:47 AM Raphael has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 24 of 61 (458047)
02-26-2008 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Raphael
02-26-2008 10:01 PM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
Raphael writes:
There is no law against killing. The Ten Commandments says "Thou Shalt not Murder", not "Thou Shalt Not Kill".
Ok, let's play your semantic game.
God told Noah what he was going to do. In other words, this was well planned. If that's not murder, I don't know what is.
Its not a justification of genocide, its not even genocide.
Killing everyone on the face of the planet except for a hand full of people is not genocide?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Raphael, posted 02-26-2008 10:01 PM Raphael has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by tesla, posted 02-29-2008 11:09 PM Taz has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 25 of 61 (458092)
02-27-2008 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Raphael
02-26-2008 10:01 PM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
Give me a break. You ask for scripture to prove God repented and then agree that He said he would not hurt man anymore. You know exactly where the scriptures are. Look them up if you don’t already have them in mind.
If His picture was badly drawn, was it the pictures fault or the artist?
If it was not Genocide then what was it?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Raphael, posted 02-26-2008 10:01 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Raphael, posted 02-29-2008 11:51 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 26 of 61 (458577)
02-29-2008 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taz
02-26-2008 10:50 PM


perspective.
you have to understand what God is before you can claim why he does what he does. and even then, the greatest wisest man is not as wise as the foolishness of God.
lets put this in perspective: you have a body. God has a body.
if you have cancer in your body, you cut it out., because it defiles your body, and could spread and kill you.
if God has a rejection in its body, that poisons his body, so also does he have the right to cut it out, that good will be preserved, that he will continue to exist.
now here is the kicker, you administer medicine to preserve poisoned parts of your body. so also did God give medicine to mankind,as they are a part of his body. but those who do not get healed by the medicine, will have to be cut off to preserve the greater whole.
now, is it not wise to cut off an arm to preserve your body?
so also is it not murder for God to cut off that which denies him and is poison to his whole. for God is of faith, and without faith, you cannot exist in the body, because it is poison to faith to have doubt.
why do you come to bible study taz? are you looking for God? or com here to show the folly of God to feel better? but i tell you: if God stands with you., no man can stand against you. because if you loose all in the earth, you gain your soul in heaven. so what then is death to a man or woman whom God is with but a homecoming?
you cannot understand, and many things i cannot understand. but God knows. he made it all. and the bible as i have learned and grown in understanding contains so much good wisdom, so much truth, that if the interpretations are understood and followed, this whole world could be rejoined with God and the earth not die.
but who will give up themselves for the will of God? the world and those of it wish to be their own God. and deny God what he made, and deny whom they exist in. and for it, if they never come to terms and have faith, but stay stubborn against the body, then like cancer will the day come. and the day will come, when God will once again make all things new. as he said he would when he walked the earth in the man body of Jesus.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Greatest I am, posted 03-01-2008 11:15 AM tesla has replied

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 462 days)
Posts: 173
From: Southern California, United States
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 27 of 61 (458583)
02-29-2008 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Greatest I am
02-27-2008 8:47 AM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
GIA said:
Give me a break. You ask for scripture to prove God repented and then agree that He said he would not hurt man anymore. You know exactly where the scriptures are. Look them up if you don’t already have them in mind.
I know what scriptures you're talking about but He didnt repent. God cannot sin so there cannot be any repenting. Yes He did say He would never again destroy the earth(I.E.Flood), but thats not repentance, He was just sorry that He had to do it because he loved the creatures, and didnt want to do it again.
If His picture was badly drawn, was it the pictures fault or the artist?
If the paint if bad paint, gets crusty really easily and the colors are weak, you throw away the paint and go to the store and buy new paint.A better analogy would be, if, in the near future, mankind developes a way to make an Android with Artificial Intelligence. The robot eventually gets too smart and thinks it doesnt need to obey humans anymore. What do the creators do? Certainly they dont leave it alone so it can cause more harm than good. They destroy it and try to build a better one.
If it was not Genocide then what was it?
Crushing the playdough and remaking the snowman.
Raph

Truth is still Truth, Whether One or a Thousand People believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Greatest I am, posted 02-27-2008 8:47 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Greatest I am, posted 03-01-2008 11:20 AM Raphael has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 28 of 61 (458640)
03-01-2008 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by tesla
02-29-2008 11:09 PM


Re: perspective.
You wrote
"if God has a rejection in its body, that poisons his body, so also does he have the right to cut it out, that good will be preserved, that he will continue to exist."
Why would God, the master of all, place a rejection in His body in the first place? Why create something that He does not want?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by tesla, posted 02-29-2008 11:09 PM tesla has replied

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 274 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 29 of 61 (458641)
03-01-2008 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Raphael
02-29-2008 11:51 PM


Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
You wrote
"I know what scriptures you're talking about but He didnt repent. God cannot sin so there cannot be any repenting. Yes He did say He would never again destroy the earth(I.E.Flood), but thats not repentance, He was just sorry that He had to do it because he loved the creatures, and didnt want to do it again."
Killing humans is a sin. Right?
Feeling sorry for an act is repentence. Right?
If not then give your definitions of each term.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Raphael, posted 02-29-2008 11:51 PM Raphael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Raphael, posted 03-01-2008 4:35 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 30 of 61 (458651)
03-01-2008 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
01-31-2008 10:14 AM


Figurative sevens
How does God make this justice happen?
Genesis 4:15
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Genesis 4:24
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
If an unrepentant killer goes to hell forever and an unrepentant killer of a killer goes to hell forever, how then can the punishment that God promises be fulfilled?
How can God give punishment seven times forever or seventy times forever?
Regards
DL
As others have pointed out, the text says nothing of "hell", but of "vengence".
But the main point of the OP seems to be the "sevenfold". This is a Hebrew idiom relating to perfection or completeness. It is not to be taken as a literal numeric value. According to the study note in the NET Bible on Gen 4:15:
The symbolic number seven is used here to emphasize that the offender will receive severe punishment. For other rhetorical and hyperbolic uses of the expression “seven times over,” see Pss 12:6; 79:12; Prov 6:31; Isa 30:26.
The study note on Gen 4:24 may help, too:
Seventy-seven times. Lamech seems to reason this way: If Cain, a murderer, is to be avenged seven times (see v. 15), then how much more one who has been unjustly wronged! Lamech misses the point of God’s merciful treatment of Cain. God was not establishing a principle of justice when he warned he would avenge Cain’s murder. In fact he was trying to limit the shedding of blood, something Lamech wants to multiply instead. The use of “seventy-seven,” a multiple of seven, is hyperbolic, emphasizing the extreme severity of the vengeance envisioned by Lamech.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 01-31-2008 10:14 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 03-01-2008 5:10 PM kbertsche has replied

  
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