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Author Topic:   Precedence of Phenotype or Genotype in the evolution of 'novel' traits.
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2716 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 6 of 13 (458263)
02-28-2008 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wounded King
02-26-2008 11:44 AM


Wounded King writes:
Is there a coherent argument to be made for any sort of entirely genetically independent epigenetic inheritance becoming genetically encoded over generations?
Although I've never looked into this, I would hypothesize epigenetics (in the form of imprinting) as a mechanism behind the atrophy of vestigial organs. I guess this wouldn't really have to become genetically-encoded, though.
Also, here in the western US (and perhaps other places) I have seen a lot of bright blue pillbugs. I did some personal "research" on it, and found a website where a man identified the causal mechanism of the blueness as a virus which had become so prevalent as to create a crystalline network that strongly reflected blue light.
That got me thinking: here at BYU, everything's blue (school colors, you know), so this blue coloration could be advantageous (even though it shortens lifespan considerably). Now, this blue is due to structural coloration, not pigments, so it's not likely to become encoded. But, if it were pigmentation (or otherwise encodable), viral transformation could pass it to the host.
I wish I knew a better example than this, because this one's kind of a stretch.

Signed,
Nobody Important (just Bluejay)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wounded King, posted 02-26-2008 11:44 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2716 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 7 of 13 (458266)
02-28-2008 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
02-27-2008 9:54 PM


Adaptive Radiation
RAZD writes:
To be a "creative response" - ie intentional - you would have different possible responses to the same stimulus from otherwise identical organisms, all of which would be beneficial.
This obviously does not occur.
I disagree with this. I think adaptive radiation results from responding differently to the same environment. Although, this may be because they are responding to different cues in that given environment.
But, when pomace flies (genus Drosophila) reached Hawaii, they quickly filled every niche available for herbivorous flies, by each electing to follow a different pattern of food consumption (among other factors).
So, I think there may be something to bertvan's idea. However, I think it leads toward natural selection more than toward intelligent design.
Edited by Bluejay, : Grammar

Signed,
Nobody Important (just Bluejay)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Wounded King, posted 02-28-2008 9:24 AM Blue Jay has replied
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 02-29-2008 10:56 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2716 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 10 of 13 (458343)
02-28-2008 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Wounded King
02-28-2008 9:24 AM


Re: Adaptive Radiation
Wounded King writes:
But what is the basis of this differential response?
I guess I was thinking more along the lines of learned behaviors or resource-exploitation. A plethora of dietary specialists could certainly come from a single, generalist stock based on intraspecies competition.
Wounded King writes:
I think that RAZD's point is that we would expect genetically identical organisms to respond in the same way to identical environments...
I understood bertvan's original idea to be a challenge to this viewpoint, though: that the basis of an organism's behavior is spontaneous (or volitional) and not deterministic.
Check this out: Maye, Hsieh, Sugihara and Brembs (2007). Order in Spontaneous Behavior. PLoS ONE 2(5): e443
This article shows that fruit flies tend to follow a structured flight pattern, even when outside stimuli are not provided. FOXNews has called this "free will," but this paper doesn't actually do much to refute the idea that identical organisms will respond to the environment in the same way. Read Brembs' quotes from the last section of the FOXNews article called "condition for free will."
I'm not sure this is what you're getting at, though.

Signed,
Nobody Important (just Bluejay)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Wounded King, posted 02-28-2008 9:24 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
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