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Author Topic:   What is "the fabric" of space-time?
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 94 of 327 (459069)
03-03-2008 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by PaulK
03-03-2008 3:21 PM


PaulK, I have answered you repeatedly and you are ignoring those answers.
If the fields are the most fundamental description of the universe then they cannot be made of anything else. If they were composed of something else then THAT would be more fundamental.
We can let cavediver speak for himself but he already stated they had no mass, nor energy, but that these concepts are derived from these fields.
In reality, these fields or whatever you want to call them are more fundamental. That's the point, and they do not conist of mass, nor energy (as defined by physics). I'd argue they do consist of energy, just not physical energy.
One way to illustrate this basic immaterial aspect of the universe is the phenomenon of entanglement or non-locality. Note: this is not making an argument based on quantum uncertainty as some have suggested though the same basic QM principles demonstrate quantum uncertainty and so that is related. It's an argument based on observed, repeatable science first predicted by quantum theory. Einstein didn't like those predictions, deriding it as spooky action at a distance, but Einstein turned out to be wrong as entanglement has been amply demonstrated just as it was amply predicted.
For anyone not knowing what it is, the short version is that 2 distant particles that became entangled at some point act as one system. Depending on how one observes or how a particle is observed (we can discuss that later on a different thread), the particle becomes either more wave-like or particle-like with specific characteristics within the physical universe. If we can determine it's path, it propagates in our perspective/universe in one path as if it was a particle along one path. If this information is not determinable by the way we observe it, then it propagates like a wave on all paths. The dominant interpretation of quantum physics is that until one of these observation events takes place, it doesn't exist in any discrete physical form at all, but exists as a potential for form (physicality). This process has often been referred to as collapsing the wave function, which used to be thought of as irreversible, but not necessarily now due to lab experiments.
Well, grasping that takes some effort the first few times one ponders it......the next part involves the fact that how one particle collapses or becomes discrete (aka as a physical form with definite, observable properties) the other entangled particle must take on specific properties as a counterpart. That's even if the other particle is on the other side of the universe. That's why Einstein called it "spooky" because there is no observed physical connection between the entangled particles, and it's not considered possible for there to be some superluminal (faster than light speed) particle to communicate and even if there was, which is not considered possible, it would have to vary it's speed to make the collapse of both particles instant.
So in summary, we have evidence that somehow differently spaced partices are connected and act as one system, but we also have strong evidence there can be no physical connection between the particles. Informationally and behaviourally, they are connected and act as one system, but physically they are separated with no ability we know of for them to be connected by another particle.
What does this show?
This shows that the connection is immaterial or non-physical and that it is an informational connection outside space and time.
Please either address my points or retract your statements claiming I have no answered you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by PaulK, posted 03-03-2008 3:21 PM PaulK has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 96 of 327 (459072)
03-03-2008 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by cavediver
03-03-2008 3:35 PM


Interesting that despite asking you specific questions and respones, you chose to not respond and then weigh in now.
So since you are listening again.....what connects entangled particles?
How do you define physical? PaulK seems to define physical in such a manner that anything, even God, must a priori be physical?
Can something physical have no mass or energy?
I asked similar questions awhile back and got no response, and then when you do respond, you don't answer specifics but just say something like "you are wrong." Different thread you did the same thing, insisting everything was deterministic.
Well, it'd be nice to hear some real answers to the questions raised. Specifically, how can a massless field lacking energy be physical?
And of course, we know that it has energy and mass as derived properties but you already admitted those are secondary things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by cavediver, posted 03-03-2008 3:35 PM cavediver has replied

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 Message 109 by cavediver, posted 03-04-2008 7:17 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 98 of 327 (459074)
03-03-2008 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by cavediver
03-03-2008 3:35 PM


btw, those questions were for PaulK. They were no rhetorical but to see where he was at.
The questions I asked of you are:
What I am getting at is that whatever this is, it isn't nothing. It's nothing physical, sure. But it does give rise to the physical aspects of the universe, right?
Call it information if you want. Call it X. It doesn't matter because I am just trying to get at what we do know about it. I think we know it's not physical, not matter and energy, but that it is potential.
How would you describe it?
Cavediver, they exist as something, right? Let's go with no energy and no mass, right? But they exist as something since they can be mathematically described, right?
How would you characterize that something? As mathematical principles and design?
Still waiting for your response.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 105 of 327 (459100)
03-03-2008 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by PaulK
03-03-2008 4:09 PM


"nothing but themselves" is still something PaulK. If matter and energy are derived properties from the field, what are the properties of the field?
It's a pretty simple and straightforward question.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 111 of 327 (459140)
03-04-2008 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by cavediver
03-04-2008 7:17 AM


I would describe 'it' mathematically, and characterise that 'something' as mathematics. That is all there is.
This is the problem I have with your claiming I am misrepresenting you, or do not understand. Mathematics is not a quantum field, a universal field, or whatever. Mathematics is not even a physical science. Math is a field of study, however.
So when asked about what constitutes "it" which gives rise to space-time, the underlying fields or field that govern the physical world, giving rise to energy and matter and you say you would characterize "it":
as mathematics
And:
That is all there is.
Then you shouldn't be surprised if someone either questions that or restates in a manner you don't like, and that's because math isn't physical. Keep in mind you just didn't state you would describe it mathematically, but that it is math. You also stated it does not consist of "anything", and that it has no energy, nor mass.
So a layman's term for the things you described might well just be "nothing physical" based on your comments.
Math isn't physical, and you said that's all there is. Hmmmm......and yet you are "tired" of my comments?
You stated it has no energy, nor matter, right?
On your definition of physical, I followed up pointing out then that if God is real, He is physical.
Shouldn't physical things be subject to physical laws and properties such as energy and matter and local realism? I think if you define anything that exists, period, as physical, then if there are, just to use an example, angels, demons, God, souls, human spirits, spiritual forces like love, etc,.....they would all have to be physical, and that regardless, you are claiming fields are physical even if they have no mass, nor energy.
In fact, you are disagreeing with mainstream science because you are saying that math is physical, but in reality math is not a physical thing. You can say it describes a physical thing, but regardless, it is not itself physical. You contradict yourself then to say these fields are math and "that's all there is" and then try to suggest they are physical.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 112 of 327 (459145)
03-04-2008 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by PaulK
03-04-2008 1:18 AM


Unanswered Questions
Let's deal with some facts. Specifically, you admit that entanglement is real, standard QM, correct?
That entangled particles are spatially seperated with no physical connection between them, right?
I showed that because they act as one system instantly regardless of distance. There are no known particles that act faster than the speed of light to communicate between the particles, and the particle would have to always vary it's speed for instanct action, right?
So let's deal with that because it's a hard fact, observable and predicted by QM and relates specifically to the subject at hand.
This is how a prominent quantum physics scientist refers to the entanglement process:
The spooky effect at a distance is a process outside time and space that even I can't really imagine. But I believe that quantum physics tells us something very profound about the world. And that is that the world is not the way it is independently of us. That the characteristics of the world are to a certain extent dependent on us.
Anton Zeilinger, Mathias Plüss, Regina Hügli: Spooky action and beyond (16/02/2006) - signandsight
Please note his comment it "is a process outside time and space."
There is a reason he says that, and it's the same thing I am saying. Nothing within space-time can connect the particles due to certain limiting principles such as the speed of light and local realism.
Contrary to the derogatory comments offered here, all I am really saying on QM (as far as the science of it) is the same thing quantum physicists say themselves. For some reason EvCers just don't want to accept it, but this is mainstream stuff.
There is a reason Einstein called the process of entanglement "spooky", and there is a reason it has puzzled scientists ever since. We know it's real, but it shows that the particles are connected OUTSIDE TIME AND SPACE.
Now, you can define as cavediver wishes to something physical as anything whatsoever if it's in the universe, but that doesn't change the fact it has no physical properties under what is normally thought of as physical. Whatever word you wish to use, we have a field, or a connection or whatever, that is not strictly within space and time, or not only within space and time, and in reality, when you dig further than this little example, we see energy, mass, time and space are just products of whatever this is.
So lemme ask you something as an aise: step back for a minute and ask yourself where else you have heard that there are realms outside of time and space, where else you have heard that are non-physical (from a layman's understanding) realms?
What we have here are properties of a system, but a large part of that system is not confined to physical properties such as space, time, energy and mass.

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 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 03-04-2008 1:18 AM PaulK has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 117 of 327 (459188)
03-04-2008 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by PaulK
03-04-2008 1:53 PM


Re: Unanswered Questions
I think that this illustrates your problem. You are still stuck in the thinking of classical physics. Because QM comes up with ideas that are strange to that you take it as essentially something supernatural.
When have I stated the process is supernatural? I have laid out specific facts very clearly. What specific physical mechanism is involved in creating what Einstein called "action at a distance."
It's clear that entangled particles act as one system, but whatever the connection that causes that is "outside time and space" as Zeilinger put it, and there is a reason he and other quantum physicists say that. Physical things have properties such as location (time and space), energy and matter. If you want to quibble with that, go ahead, but at least address the picture here.
There is no way that physical particles travel faster than the speed of light, or at least that's the current thinking, and to do so these particles would have to adjust their speed to create instant action at a distance, as Einstein put it.
So whatever medium is connecting the different particles is not something within space and time. It can be described mathematically as a wave-function, but that doesn't mean it has physical properties such as being limited to the speed of light, or definite locations within space-time.
You say, well, the field connects it. Ok, let's go with that. Why is the action instant?
Why does Zeiliner say it's "outside time and space"?
Those are the questions I am asking you. They are not claims of supernaturalness, but specific fact-based claims.
Think of a wave, say an ocean wave. When someone down the beach dives into the wave, the wave miles away doesn't instantly change, does it? Any measurable change would have to travel via physical mechanisms which take time. If a change doesn't take any time, as with the process of entanglement, then somehow that change is effected outside time and space. In other words, the process of entanglement is independent of time and space in terms of one particle collapsing to one state determining the state of the other particle.
I don't claim it is supernatural. I reiterate what someone like Zeilinger says and that is outside time and space.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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 Message 116 by PaulK, posted 03-04-2008 1:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 03-04-2008 3:11 PM randman has replied
 Message 124 by Agobot, posted 03-04-2008 7:43 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 120 of 327 (459194)
03-04-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
03-04-2008 3:11 PM


Re: Unanswered Questions
I am addressing the picture. You are restricting "physical" to classical physics. And that's wrong. That isn't a quibble - it is a serious problem that invalidates your argument.
It doesn't invalidate the argument, nor am defining physical in any other way that science defines physical. Moreover, it's not the label I am trying to get you to address but the picture, the qualities and properties and processes involved. You can define physical as items outside time and space with no mass, nor energy, if you want, and we'd still be talking of a process outside time and space with no mass, nor energy. So let's address the specific qualities first to get an understanding of perhaps where we agree.
Wouldn't that be a better place to start?
We can discuss later whether physical or material things must have a location within space and time and whether they must have energy or mass. Obviously, I think calling things which have no location, no energy and no mass "physical" or "material" is inconsistent with how science defines those terms, but if you want to expand those terms to include anything, including God if He exists, so be it.
Let's first see if we can discuss the properties of the process involved.
ANd that's classical physics again. QM doesn't work like that
That's the point. It doesn't work via materialistic or mechanistic means within space and time.
[qs] Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should try considering how entanglement might work in the many-world model of QM ? I have.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 121 of 327 (459195)
03-04-2008 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
03-04-2008 3:11 PM


Re: Unanswered Questions
I am addressing the picture. You are restricting "physical" to classical physics. And that's wrong. That isn't a quibble - it is a serious problem that invalidates your argument.
It doesn't invalidate the argument, nor am defining physical in any other way that science defines physical. Moreover, it's not the label I am trying to get you to address but the picture, the qualities and properties and processes involved. You can define physical as items outside time and space with no mass, nor energy, if you want, and we'd still be talking of a process outside time and space with no mass, nor energy. So let's address the specific qualities first to get an understanding of perhaps where we agree.
Wouldn't that be a better place to start?
We can discuss later whether physical or material things must have a location within space and time and whether they must have energy or mass. Obviously, I think calling things which have no location, no energy and no mass "physical" or "material" is inconsistent with how science defines those terms, but if you want to expand those terms to include anything, including God if He exists, so be it.
Let's first see if we can discuss the properties of the process involved.
ANd that's classical physics again. QM doesn't work like that
That's the point. It doesn't work via materialistic or mechanistic means within space and time.
ANd that's classical physics again. QM doesn't work like that
That's the point. It doesn't work via materialistic or mechanistic means within space and time.
ANd that's classical physics again. QM doesn't work like that
That's the point. It doesn't work via materialistic or mechanistic means within space and time.
Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should try considering how entanglement might work in the many-world model of QM ? I have.
The reason I use entanglement to illustrate this point is my point here is the same in the many-worlds interpretation and the Pilot Wave theory. It's still action at a distance. In the Many-Worlds, it's an instant mechanism to create consistency between the 2 particles. Of course, positing the creation of infinite multiple universes doesn't explain where the energy for all those universes come from. In other words, it still must stem from something outside space and time.
The Pilot Wave theory seeks to preserve causality, but it still results in the violation of local realism, and in terms of this thread, it doesn't change anything.
Entanglement was described as spooky action at a distance by Einstein for a reason. Why do you think that was?
Edited by randman, : No reason given.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 126 of 327 (459238)
03-04-2008 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by johnfolton
03-04-2008 11:33 PM


Re: Unanswered Questions
I don't know enough about string theory to comment but it strikes me that if extra dimensions would appear very small if not undetectable from our vantage point, but could be very large from the perspective within an extra dimension.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 127 of 327 (459239)
03-04-2008 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Agobot
03-04-2008 7:43 PM


Re: Unanswered Questions
I wouldn't say they move simultaneously, but rather they exist without physical form in no location within space and time, and then become physical in a discrete form simultaneously.
As far as time travel, that's a whole different subject.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 128 of 327 (459240)
03-05-2008 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
03-04-2008 4:12 PM


Re: Many worlds
PaulK, but the particle's form is dependant on what can be known of it, meaning what's asked of it so to speak. It takes a form based on the observation event. So it's not preexisting in that form.
The entangled particle then is affected by that same event.
As far as information being transmitted, you can discuss this in a lot of ways but what has been verified is that the 2 particles act as one system. That's just as much true in the Many Worlds theory as any other. Just the idea that another universe is created so that the particle appears differently in the other universe doesn't explain why or how the entangled particle would appear consistent within the same universe. In other words, the same thing is true whether the Many Worlds is right or not. Either way, entangled particles act as one system with no physical mechanism explaining that.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 129 of 327 (459248)
03-05-2008 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by johnfolton
03-04-2008 11:33 PM


Re: Unanswered Questions
Bars’ math suggests that the familiar world of four dimensions ” three of space, one of time ” is merely a shadow of a richer six-dimensional reality. In this view the ordinary world is like a two-dimensional wall displaying shadows of the objects in a three-dimensional room.
In a similar way, the observable universe of ordinary space and time may reflect the physics of a bigger space with an extra dimension of time. In ordinary life nobody notices the second time dimension, just as nobody sees the third dimension of an object’s two-dimensional shadow on a wall.
Taken from the article you linked to....this fits with my personal conceptions of the universe and what I have been saying, especially the "shadow" comment.
http://www.physorg.com/news98468776.html
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 131 of 327 (459274)
03-05-2008 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by PaulK
03-05-2008 1:36 AM


Re: Many worlds
My point is that the "event" - the measurement - effects the whole universe by forcing a "split" in reality.
Is that really germane to the argument here? Think about it. How does the entangled particle know what universe which particle should be in?
Imo, the Many-Worlds idea doesn't change a thing when it comes to entanglement.
The laws of physics say that the particles must be in a consistent state.
But which specific laws? The laws at work here are the principles of quantum mechanics. That's the only law or rule I know of dictating that an entangled particle acts as one system with the particle it's entangled with. So once again, the Many Worlds idea doesn't change anything when it comes to entanglement except that if there is a split in the universe, there are 2 entangled particles in the other universe as well.
So the question of how the other particle "knows" what state it should be in is solved - not by super-luminal "communication". It is solved by the split in the universe. Whichever universe you end up in, the particles will necessarily be in a consistent state.
I am glad to see we are communicating, but I have to ask you.....exactly what part of the universe creates the consistency in entangled particles? My point as above is that the rules of entanglement are the rules of QM. The entangled particle becomes discrete not randomly but rather dictated by what happens with the other particle. That same action occurs even if there is a split in the universe.
So either way, you get action at a distance in a process outside time and space. Heck, if the universe as a whole could sense what needs to happen instantly across time and space within itself so it makes all things come out consistently, or if there is some hidden mechanism making that happen, it's still the same point I am making. That's still a mechanism outside time and space because it's independent of time and space in the sense it's instant action.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4917 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 133 of 327 (459280)
03-05-2008 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by happy_atheist
03-05-2008 12:21 PM


There is nothing but the field. Anything else that appears to exist is really just the field. There isn't anything more physical than the field, because the field is the universe.
This is a tautology. If you want to say anything within the universe is automatically physical, fine. That means if God exist, He is physical, same for angels or whatever.
But I think rather than clouding the issue with labels since under your definition of physical, all spiritual things are actually physical too, it's better to talk about properties. It's clear that there are operations outside space and time as shown by entanglement. If space and time are derived properties as well as energy and mass of the field, then absent the derived properties, what does this field consist of?
We know it consists of information because it can be described mathematically. Btw, Cavediver said he describes it "as mathematics" and so under your definition coupled with his comment, math itself is a physical thing. I am not sure that equates with the scientific understanding of what math is, but like I said, the label is a just a word to describe properties.
Would you agree that mass, energy, space and time are derived from the more fundamental state of the field or whatever one wishes to call the matrix giving rise to these things?

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