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Author Topic:   Smart People?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 10 of 131 (459757)
03-09-2008 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by pelican
03-09-2008 6:19 PM


pelican writes:
This is absurd. Thinking has nothing to do with literacy.
Oh my god! I think you've got something there. And I've been paying my taxes for our public school system for nothing! We should get rid of the school system all together and save ourselves a few tax dollars!
Isn't this just from your judgement? This is the point. Is it so important when there is nothing lost in communicating ideas?
In my experience accurate spelling does not improve communication.
This is an online forum. Unlike real life, we have absolutely nothing to go on except your words. And since we have absolutely nothing to go on by except your words, everytime you get sloppy with your words result in a loss of communicating idea somewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by pelican, posted 03-09-2008 6:19 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by pelican, posted 03-10-2008 12:45 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 20 of 131 (459822)
03-10-2008 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by pelican
03-10-2008 12:45 AM


Re: The idea behing the OP
pelican writes:
Were you able to read and understand the misspelled passage in the OP?
Yes.
If you did, do you think there was anything lost in communicating the idea it presented?
You're missing the point. We don't mind misspellings at all. In fact, I misspell words all the time on here. I also make grammatical mistakes all the time on here.
What people like me have a problem with is the persistence to misspell and make grammatical errors on the conscious level. By conscious, I mean the decision to not care how well your messages are written.
Like I said before. I don't know you in real life. I can't see your facial expressions or your bodily gestures. All I have to go on are your words. The more you pay attention to the wellness of your grammar and spelling, the less likely there will be a miscommunication between us.

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by pelican, posted 03-10-2008 12:45 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 03-10-2008 1:29 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 32 of 131 (459877)
03-10-2008 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by pelican
03-10-2008 1:29 AM


Re: The idea behing the OP
pelican writes:
Why should it bother anyone enough to make a judgement of "they don't care?"
First of all, let me make it clear that I think your writing is fine. I don't know why people have pointed out your mistakes in the past.
With that said, the word "judgment" is spelled without an "e" in the middle. Ok, sorry, simply couldn't resist
The reason we care about people's attitude toward their writing is the same reason we care about people who decide to go to meetings and whatnot wearing ragged clothing and unshaven for days. Sure, if that's their choice to not shave for days and look like a rag, I guess it's their freedom to do so. But we'd have to ask if they really respect us at all.
Why has my spelling been pointed out to me many times when it distracted nothing from the point and the only point made in the reply is my spelling?
I don't know. Can you give a few specific links? Personally, I haven't noticed you that much.
Maybe it gives the reader an opportunity to bitch.
Admittedly, some people do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by pelican, posted 03-10-2008 1:29 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by bluegenes, posted 03-10-2008 3:52 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 03-10-2008 8:29 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 37 of 131 (459911)
03-10-2008 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by pelican
03-10-2008 8:29 PM


Re: The idea behing the OP
pelican writes:
This is the problem. You make it about you! You can't make it past your own judgements (I like it better spelled this way). If you want respect then you have to earn it. The same rules apply whoever you are. Do you think good spelling and good grooming deserve respect?
As is true of everything, there are certain levels of respect. Some are earned, and some are given.
The people in my office did not have to earn my respect of not wearing ragged clothing into the office. The same goes with probably everyone that I meet out in the street.
And then there is the level of respect that have to be earned.
To be honest, I don't feel much respect for your judgements at all, and it makes it difficult for me not to judge you as you judge others. But this is not a personal vendetta and not about me. It is about how the mind works with the written word.
There hasn't been any judgment from my end. Like I said before, I haven't noticed you at all before I noticed this thread.
But what I said about respect stands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by pelican, posted 03-10-2008 8:29 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 1:26 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 47 of 131 (459952)
03-11-2008 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by pelican
03-11-2008 10:03 AM


Re: not so smart
pelican writes:
Personally, I found it quite easy to read and paused only momentarily on a couple of the words. Given the replies, it seems there was little distraction in actually deciphering the words.
Then you are way smarter than me. I couldn't read that sentence at all.
This is one of the reasons why I prefer people to try their best when writing something online to communicate like this. I can't speed read. Words that are not spelled correctly are sometimes not as obvious to me as to other people. It may surprise you to know, but there are also members here who are dyslexic. Every time you intentionally misspell a word, not punctuate correctly, or not capitalize the beginning of a sentence and proper nouns, you make these people's lives a little more difficult.
The second observation made by the author is that:
due to the ease in which incorrectly spelled words are read, then spelling is not as important as previously thought.
Correct spelling, proper punctuation, and whatnot is just a common courtesy. Ok, so most people can probably read that little bit in the OP, but some can't. I, for example, had to go back and forth many times to be able to read most of it. There are still some words that are a mystery to me. I'm pretty sure I'm not the worst case, as some others here have mentioned their dyslexia.
Like Percy said, with the various instantaneous spell checking programs out there, there really is no excuse. By persistently being a bad speller and not properly punctuate, you make our lives a little harder every time we want to read what you have to say.
That said, personally I just skip right over posts that are not written well unless they only have a sentence or two. There were two members here that were vocally admitting that they consciously decided to not capitalize at all as a way to rebel (or whatever). Since they are gone now (they died in the 2008 EvC massacre, I can come out and say it now. I read maybe 1 in 10 of their messages.
The speed of communication was not in question. Understanding is the basis of good communication.
And there are people like myself who rely on good writing to read correctly and then there are those who are worse off than me. Why make our lives miserable by purposefully not capitalize or punctuate correctly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 10:03 AM pelican has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 55 of 131 (460001)
03-11-2008 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by RAZD
03-11-2008 8:36 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
RAZD writes:
It was more like sight-reading a brand new piece than playing an old favorite.
You a musician? If so, what instrument?

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 03-11-2008 8:36 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 56 of 131 (460003)
03-11-2008 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by pelican
03-11-2008 8:53 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
pelican writes:
Yes, those are the main two points in the OP. The reading of the passage and the comprehension of the passage. It seems most had no trouble reading it which shows a high level of literacy skills but the comprehension? I don't know about that.
To add on to RAZD point about playing an old favorite versus playing a new piece of music for the first time.
Speaking as a musician, I really don't mind hearing people play wrong notes at all. In fact, I hear professionals play wrong notes all the time. For example, the following is a youtube recording of one of Horowitz's better performance of the Rachmaninoff's 3rd Concerto. At exactly 8:09, he played a B instead of an A with his right hand. Does that wrong note undermine his performance? Of course not. It was a splendid performance.
On the other hand, a few years back I attended a performance of Copland's Clarinet Concerto by Richard Stoltzman. Stoltzman must have had a bad day, because he squeaked probably more than a dozen times throughout the performance. Ok, I can tolerate a few squeaks because I understand that this is a problem for many clarinetists (especially when I am a clarinetist myself). But I can tolerate up to half a dozen or so squeaks before I mentally lose track of the flow of music and involuntarily start counting the squeaks.
Apply that to people's messages. There are only so many misspellings and grammatical errors before I lose track of what the writer is trying to convey and involuntarily focus on the errors.
Edited by True Believer, : No reason given.

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 8:53 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 10:29 PM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 59 of 131 (460010)
03-11-2008 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by pelican
03-11-2008 10:29 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
pelican writes:
I expect you had higher expectations than were delivered and rightly so, as I expect they were paid professionals. However, listening and reading are entirely different. A person with less literacy skills may have a fantasic idea that is dismissed because of a few 'squeaks'.
Don't get me wrong. When I criticize people for their grammar and spelling, I only do it after I've made sure that they were fully capable of not making those errors. I'm not a monster.
The message does not have to be correctly spelled and does not need to flow like a musical composition. It just needs to be read, which doesn't seem to be a problem for the literary skilled, and has to have a point, which frankly most have missed in this thread. How do you actually comprehend the point(s) of the passage?
This is easier said than done for some of us. People like myself fully understand that some people are not that literarily gifted. I myself am not that literarily literary. I know, the word "literarily" doesn't exist
A while back, there was this guy that claimed to be a professional of some sort. Yet, he consistently made grammar and spelling errors. When I asked him about it, he told me that English was his second language and that his first language was Francais. I promptly apologized to him.
Again, I'm not a monster. I know my limitations, and I'm aware that other people have limitations of their own.
That said, there are people who purposely not pay attention to spelling and grammar. Most of the time, I just skip right over their posts.
It may be involuntary but you can't hold others responsible for your lack of concentration.
You're absolutely right, which is why I have repeatedly said that good spelling and good grammar is only a courtesy for those of us who aren't as literary as others. Remember that I still have trouble reading that jumbled paragraph of yours in the OP even though by now I know what it's suppose to say. There are at least some members here who are dyslexic and not paying attention to your spelling and grammar make their lives this much harder. Of course people can decide not to be courteous. It's their right.
I just want to add that in this post alone I went back 3 times to proof read before pressing the submit button.

Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by pelican, posted 03-11-2008 10:29 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by pelican, posted 03-12-2008 1:28 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 60 of 131 (460013)
03-11-2008 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Brad McFall
03-11-2008 10:14 PM


Re: grammar vs thought
Brad McFall writes:
If you know anything about my own postings on EVC you will know or could hear from others here that I often to do not use proper English. I could but I do not think this affects my communication when it comes to what matters.
Brad, no offense, but just how many people do you think actually read your more cryptic posts? I'll be honest right here and say that I tend to skip right over them and look for summaries or responses by other people.
When it comes to what matters, don't you think it's kinda pointless if nobody could understand what the hell you're saying?
Here is an example. Suppose I find out that the end of the world comes next year unless everyone in the world turns gay. The message that really matters is "Hey people, we all need to turn gay so the world doesn't end next year." But since I'm in a state of panic, all I could say is "MUST TURN GAY MUST TURN GAY OR WE ALL DIE MUST TURN GAY!!!!!" Or I could be even more cryptic and say "hooga booga" repeatedly.
How on Earth can what really matters gets conveyed if nobody could understand what the hell I'm saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Brad McFall, posted 03-11-2008 10:14 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Brad McFall, posted 03-11-2008 11:16 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 66 by ThreeDogs, posted 03-12-2008 1:59 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 67 of 131 (460064)
03-12-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by pelican
03-12-2008 1:28 AM


Re: comprehension of passage
pelican writes:
How can you know if it is deliberate?
I ask.
You are defending the 'reading' rights of those with literacy problems and I am defending the 'writing' rights of the same people.
I am not defending the "reading rights" of those with literacy problems. I am simply pointing out that, while it is your freedom to decide to write like crap even though you can do better, it is the nice and courteous thing to do to follow the grammar and spelling rules.
Try to see it this way. Handicapped people don't have the right to force others to open and keep the door open for them. But it's the courteous thing to do.
Again, I'm not saying you must have the correct spelling and the correct grammar or else. I'm saying that it's the nice thing to do especially for those who have trouble reading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by pelican, posted 03-12-2008 1:28 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by pelican, posted 03-13-2008 2:06 AM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 85 of 131 (471315)
06-15-2008 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by pelican
06-15-2008 11:24 PM


pelican writes:
..................................and if one is very polite and has put in thier best effort?
I'd hardly call the semi-sentence above as "best effort". First of all, "one" is singular. But more importantly, "thier" is actually spelled "their".
When I communicate online, I try my best to not make common mistakes. Do I make mistakes? Sure. Do I try not to? You betcha. I also try my best when I communicate verbally in real life. I try my best not to stutter, use fillers like "um" and "uh", etc. Do I sometimes stutter and use fillers? You betcha.
The point is some effort is better than none.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by pelican, posted 06-15-2008 11:24 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by pelican, posted 06-16-2008 12:49 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 87 of 131 (471325)
06-16-2008 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by pelican
06-16-2008 12:49 AM


pelican writes:
I meant someONE. Your understanding makes no sense at all. Let me clarify, what if someone has put in their best effort and is very polite?
Noone here is a monster. If best effort and politeness are both present, then we will return in kind. That said, little or no effort is neither polite nor "best effort".

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by pelican, posted 06-16-2008 12:49 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by pelican, posted 06-16-2008 2:19 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 89 of 131 (471330)
06-16-2008 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by pelican
06-16-2008 2:19 AM


Re: Comprehending incorrect spelling
pelican writes:
For example, my incorrect spelling of 'their' was pointed out to me. I wasn't being impolite and I made an honest mistake.
I assure you, normally I wouldn't have been so petty. However, notice that you misspelled it in the very sentence that you talked about best effort...
How would you tell the difference?
Well, I'll answer this in a little bit.
Drawing attention to this irrelevent mistake, drew attention away from the point. There was no comprehension whatsoever of what I was saying and it wasn't because I made a spelling mistake.
As I pointed out before, noone here is a monster. Unintentional mistakes are mostly ignored. And trust me, everyone makes mistakes, including em.
That said, just how many "unintentional" mistakes should there be before they become a distraction?
It's like where does orange ends and yellow begins. I know it when I see it. Take it how you like. When I write, I keep my eyes open for mistakes that might distract people from the piont I'm trying to make. Now, don't be a liar and tell me you didn't just wince at that misspelling.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by pelican, posted 06-16-2008 2:19 AM pelican has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by lyx2no, posted 06-16-2008 8:10 AM Taz has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 92 of 131 (471360)
06-16-2008 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by lyx2no
06-16-2008 8:10 AM


Re: Comprehending incorrect spelling
lyx2no writes:
Who is Noone, and why is he a monster?
Access denied
I have personal sources that say Peter Noone is a satan worshipper and baby eater.
But anyway, point taken.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by lyx2no, posted 06-16-2008 8:10 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by lyx2no, posted 06-16-2008 2:23 PM Taz has not replied

  
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