Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Smart People?
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 31 of 131 (459854)
03-10-2008 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by bluegenes
03-10-2008 8:58 AM


Everything there is either on the topic or closely related enough to it for other forums, let alone "Coffee House".
Did you actually read your own replies, especially about the apes? What have apes got to do with spelling of language?
Did you read the OP? It is concerned only with spelling and makes the point that spelling is not so important because the mind does not read the whole word, just the first and last letter. A fascinating concept, don't you think?
However, it does not prove to be the case in this thread at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by bluegenes, posted 03-10-2008 8:58 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by bluegenes, posted 03-10-2008 3:09 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 36 of 131 (459909)
03-10-2008 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Taz
03-10-2008 1:13 PM


Re: The idea behing the OP
With that said, the word "judgment" is spelled without an "e" in the middle. Ok, sorry, simply couldn't resist
Happy to oblige.
But we'd have to ask if they really respect us at all.
This is the problem. You make it about you! You can't make it past your own judgements (I like it better spelled this way). If you want respect then you have to earn it. The same rules apply whoever you are. Do you think good spelling and good grooming deserve respect?
To be honest, I don't feel much respect for your judgements at all, and it makes it difficult for me not to judge you as you judge others. But this is not a personal vendetta and not about me. It is about how the mind works with the written word.
The Op makes two points.
1. The correct spelling is not as important as many believe.
2. It is the Judgement itself (of incorrect spelling) that distracts from the concept and not neccessarily the spelling.
If you read the misspelled passage with ease, then this would support point 1.
If your mind is concerned only with the spelling and doesn't grasp the concept, then it supports point 2.
From the replies, I see nothing to suggest anyone had difficulty reading the misspelled passage, so the communication was not a problem.
However, it seems the concept was lost! Who is responsible for the breakdown in this communication? The author or the reader?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Taz, posted 03-10-2008 1:13 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 03-10-2008 9:06 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 40 of 131 (459922)
03-11-2008 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Taz
03-10-2008 9:06 PM


Re: The idea behing the OP
I am actually referring to judgement in general, but like I said you can't get past it. You have not mentioned anything else. I give up. regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 03-10-2008 9:06 PM Taz has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 41 of 131 (459924)
03-11-2008 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by bluegenes
03-10-2008 3:09 PM


not so smart
The rcreerash clniatrey deos not ilpmy taht tlbirree snillepg is eulalqy esay to raed as pcfreet slilnpeg.
I had to come back to this as no-one would spell in this manner. Most of us read with the sound in mind. This is how children learn. How the hell would anyone read this and comprehend it without the natural sound of the word being in your mind? Your incorrect spelling is designed to deliberately be misleading. Most people try to spell correctly.
Edited by pelican, : No reason given.
Edited by pelican, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by bluegenes, posted 03-10-2008 3:09 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by bluegenes, posted 03-11-2008 3:40 AM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 42 of 131 (459925)
03-11-2008 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by fallacycop
03-10-2008 9:41 PM


Re: The idea behing the OP
Misspellings and grammatical errors can be distracting. When I see people using "their" instead of "they're" or vice-versa, I really have to stop in my tracks and go back to the begining of the phrase to make sure I haven't missundertood something. When I find out I haven't missunderstood anything, I realise I'm dealing with a dope, get annoyed, and feel tempted to skip the post all together. A simple misspelled word isn't that bad, but it does catch my eye, distracts me and makes me loose some time getting back on track.
I can understand the distraction, however there and their and they're can easily be comprehended in context.
I don't understand how you can judge someone a dope.
It seems all objections to incorrect spelling is from personal judgements and frustrations and nothing to do with the author.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by fallacycop, posted 03-10-2008 9:41 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Jaderis, posted 03-11-2008 4:41 AM pelican has not replied
 Message 49 by fallacycop, posted 03-11-2008 3:30 PM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 43 of 131 (459926)
03-11-2008 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by tesla
03-10-2008 8:10 PM


Re: Practise and preaching
By the initial post, i believe the author is pointing out that someone who cant read or write can possibly play Bach better than Bach. That the content of what is written is more valuable than the structure of the grammar.
I have no idea where you got this from. It wasn't in my OP.
Too many, like you (apparently), Are so anal about the written style, that content is ignored.
What do you mean by anal?
Meaning #1: (psychoanalysis) a personality characterized by meticulous neatness and suspicion and reserve; formed in early childhood by fixation during the anal stage of development (as a consequence of toilet training)
Do you mean this? I am not the one fixated on correct spelling, if that is what you are inferring.
Fools humble the wise, because from the lips of fools comes a simple wisdom. The wise can become arrogant about their wisdom. They can be more foolish than a fool and still be perceived to have said something wise.
No one knows all things. And every individual has experienced or been subject to a knowledge that only that person has gained. It is wise to treat all people with the same dignity and respect you desire for yourself.
I absolutely agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by tesla, posted 03-10-2008 8:10 PM tesla has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 46 of 131 (459948)
03-11-2008 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by bluegenes
03-11-2008 3:40 AM


Re: not so smart
My phrase obeys the same rules as the piece you quoted in the O.P.
Yes I see you are but I believe it was written by the researchers and not as a 'bad' speller would write it.
I used the passage to see if the literate people could read it with ease or not. Personally, I found it quite easy to read and paused only momentarily on a couple of the words. Given the replies, it seems there was little distraction in actually deciphering the words.
The point I was making is that the Cambridge research does not mean that bad spelling isn't a hindrance to communication. It merely shows that we can decipher misspellings quite easily if the first and last letters of the words are correctly placed.
That was one observation made by the author that your misspelled words dipute. (I couldn't read a couple of yours at all.) However,that wasn't the case in the OP. They were easily read.
The second observation made by the author is that:
due to the ease in which incorrectly spelled words are read, then spelling is not as important as previously thought.
If you hadn't used the word "good" there, then I wouldn't have disagreed. Correct spelling certainly isn't paramount to communication, but standardized spellings certainly help with the speed of understanding, and make basic communication into "good" communication.
The speed of communication was not in question. Understanding is the basis of good communication.
I don't think anyone here is objecting to the occasional typo or misspelling, as we all make them. But sometimes we get posters who almost seem to make an effort to slow the readers' understanding down. You don't seem to be one of them, judging by this thread.
You have been lucky as it has happened to me many times and I am not the only one. I am not offended by it because I don't care but when the concept is lost time again because others resort to critizing anything they can find, well it pisses me off regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by bluegenes, posted 03-11-2008 3:40 AM bluegenes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Taz, posted 03-11-2008 10:57 AM pelican has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 51 of 131 (459988)
03-11-2008 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by ThreeDogs
03-11-2008 11:50 AM


comprehension of passage
I had no trouble reading this. It has a certain rhythm/cadence that make reading of any kind pleasurable. Good writing is done by those who consider the written word a form of music. The rest is sleep meds, except when the topic is important to the reader, or student.
Yes, I can see that. I am a music lover but not everyone is. We each have unique ways of comprehending and communicating. We only know what we know.
I had no trouble reading the passage and I assessed it point by point.
1. I agreed that good literacy skills were essential to read it.
2. The author observed that: it doesn't matter what order the letters are in as long as first and last were in the correct place. I agree this was correct for some but not all, e.g words can be spelled omitting the last letter and still be read.
3. Another observation by the author was: the human mind does not read every letter by itself but the whole word. Again, maybe for some but not for all.
4. I totally agreed with the final observation made by the author, (indicating a change of mind) in that 'spelling is not so important'.
Words incorrectly spelled is either a sign of mental illness or personal carelessness. A slob by any other word, spells carelessly and dresses with equal abandon.
I'm sorry but this beautifully written opinion of yours is crap!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by ThreeDogs, posted 03-11-2008 11:50 AM ThreeDogs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 03-11-2008 8:36 PM pelican has replied
 Message 64 by ThreeDogs, posted 03-12-2008 1:48 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 53 of 131 (459996)
03-11-2008 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Brad McFall
03-11-2008 5:51 PM


Re: grammar vs thought
I said, "difficult concept" not none!!
Ok, you assumed there was no difficult concept, how does that affect the content of the passage?
The tighttrope is too thin then?
I assume this is a metaphor but what do you actually mean to say? In my opinion that is poor communication. Do you think I will waste my time trying to work out a possible insult?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Brad McFall, posted 03-11-2008 5:51 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Brad McFall, posted 03-11-2008 10:14 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 54 of 131 (459999)
03-11-2008 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by RAZD
03-11-2008 8:36 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
Hello Razd, Let bygones be bygones.
There is a difference between being able to read and being able to perceive the flow of the concepts.
Yes, those are the main two points in the OP. The reading of the passage and the comprehension of the passage. It seems most had no trouble reading it which shows a high level of literacy skills but the comprehension? I don't know about that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 03-11-2008 8:36 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Taz, posted 03-11-2008 9:39 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 58 of 131 (460008)
03-11-2008 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Taz
03-11-2008 9:39 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
On the other hand, a few years back I attended a performance of Copland's Clarinet Concerto by Richard Stoltzman. Stoltzman must have had a bad day, because he squeaked probably more than a dozen times throughout the performance. Ok, I can tolerate a few squeaks because I understand that this is a problem for many clarinetists (especially when I am a clarinetist myself). But I can tolerate up to half a dozen or so squeaks before I mentally lose track of the flow of music and involuntarily start counting the squeaks.
I expect you had higher expectations than were delivered and rightly so, as I expect they were paid professionals. However, listening and reading are entirely different. A person with less literacy skills may have a fantasic idea that is dismissed because of a few 'squeaks'.
The message does not have to be correctly spelled and does not need to flow like a musical composition. It just needs to be read, which doesn't seem to be a problem for the literary skilled, and has to have a point, which frankly most have missed in this thread. How do you actually comprehend the point(s) of the passage?
Apply that to people's messages. There are only so many misspellings and grammatical errors before I lose track of what the writer is trying to convey and involuntarily focus on the errors
It may be involuntary but you can't hold others responsible for your lack of concentration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Taz, posted 03-11-2008 9:39 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Taz, posted 03-11-2008 10:54 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 62 of 131 (460019)
03-12-2008 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Brad McFall
03-11-2008 10:14 PM


So, I really do not see why or how you, for a third time took the bait and continued to not accentuate the postive.
You mean you have been deliberately baiting me?
I used "ttrope" for either trope or rope but you bit. Sorry for that because really I was trying to agree pretty much with you.
I'm sorry, but I think you used 'tighttrope' and joining two words together is not playing the game, Brad. What is a 'tight trope', by the way?
This shows why sometimes it IS better to spell, and punctuate, and use grammar correctly since communication down under apparently staid, well stale and burnt.
I agree that it is better to communicate using good writing and punctuation but is not of paramount importance to written communication. For example, in the above, I cannot spot any spelling mistake but the latter half of the sentence makes no sense to me. Good spelling has not conveyed the message efficiently, no more than tighttrope being too thin did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Brad McFall, posted 03-11-2008 10:14 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Brad McFall, posted 03-12-2008 7:12 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 63 of 131 (460020)
03-12-2008 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Taz
03-11-2008 10:54 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
Don't get me wrong. When I criticize people for their grammar and spelling, I only do it after I've made sure that they were fully capable of not making those errors. I'm not a monster.
But do you pay attention and address the content?
That said, there are people who purposely not pay attention to spelling and grammar. Most of the time, I just skip right over their posts.
How can you know if it is deliberate? I only query spelling or grammar if I cannot understand it. I see no other reason to do so.
You're absolutely right, which is why I have repeatedly said that good spelling and good grammar is only a courtesy for those of us who aren't as literary as others. Remember that I still have trouble reading that jumbled paragraph of yours in the OP even though by now I know what it's suppose to say. There are at least some members here who are dyslexic and not paying attention to your spelling and grammar make their lives this much harder. Of course people can decide not to be courteous. It's their right.
I just want to add that in this post alone I went back 3 times to proof read before pressing the submit button.
Ah I do like you. You are defending the 'reading' rights of those with literacy problems and I am defending the 'writing' rights of the same people. This is great. I never thought of that side of the coin. Touche!
You are the only one who has said they had trouble reading the missplelled words but you do not have the same trouble writing. There are many who do not possess your writing skills who are dismissed because of it.
Personally I think all spelling should accompany the sound, with a few exceptions. Regards

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Taz, posted 03-11-2008 10:54 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 1:59 PM pelican has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 72 of 131 (460161)
03-13-2008 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Taz
03-12-2008 1:59 PM


Re: comprehension of passage
Again, I'm not saying you must have the correct spelling and the correct grammar or else. I'm saying that it's the nice thing to do especially for those who have trouble reading.
Those who have trouble reading also have trouble writing, don't you think? It certainly isn't the majority on this forum. They read and write perfectly well. If I can read correct spelling, then I can read missplled words too. Most read the OP with ease but some of those are impatient and critical of others misspelled posts and not because it is illedgible.
I think that maybe your experience is quite unique.
Most do not deliberately mispell but do their best as you and I do. Isn't it courteous to make an effort to read them instead of dismissing them?
Edited by pelican, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Taz, posted 03-12-2008 1:59 PM Taz has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 74 of 131 (460167)
03-13-2008 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Brad McFall
03-12-2008 7:12 PM


Re: reply
I no longer have an intution for what that might be nor what you are interested in dicussing loosely at all. Why don't you just tell us. Most of the content of your post is within the brain(in series or via a static state), involutarily perpetuated, it seemed to me.
Involuntary, no. I present a series of points that link together, at least in my mind. All the dots join together. However, I have been discussing the importance, or not, of correct spelling in written communication. That is all, nothing more.
I had only just read the misspelled passage for the first time myself, and I saw implications (also observed by the author) that correct spelling is not so important. My intention to posting the misspelled passage was to get others' observations in comparison with my own.
We can read words with only the correct first and last letter, we can also read them with the last letter missing, (probably not the first). We can read words with letters missing in the middle. We can also read words and sentences with missing punctuation, not that punctuation was part of the OP. It focussed on spelling only.
My observations showed me that correct spelling is not as important as the content. If the content is crap, no amount of correct spelling will change that.
Edited by pelican, : No reason given.
Edited by pelican, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Brad McFall, posted 03-12-2008 7:12 PM Brad McFall has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024