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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
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Author | Topic: the new and improved obama thread | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Granny writes: I must have been dozing off when Wright specified that whites were to blame for Hiroshima and Nagasaki (I thought he used the word "we"; maybe I was dreaming), or where he actually accused whites of ruining the nation. Funny that. Besides, just because Obama has listens to Wright, it does not mean he agrees with him on every single issue, still less that he would follow any of Wright's advice. I doubt that every member of your congregation slavishly believes every word you say; I certainly hope not. Anyway, you were going to demonstrate that Wright was a "radical black racist" and that he is "antisemitic" and that he "espouses racist black power" and that he "has connections with racist Nation of Islam's leaders". You have ignored my request to show me the bit of your cited article that backs up any of these assertions. I assume that the reason for this is because you know full well that your cite demonstrates nothing of the sort. 2. No presidential candidate likely donated tens of thousands to Jerry or Pat's ministry, were married and baptized by them or took their children regularly to hear them. You need to demonstrate that there is something wrong with the pastor before it follows that there is something wrong with supporting him. You have ignored my invitation to back up your slurs. The worst your article has on Wright is that he said "damn America". Oh horror! Obama sits and listens to someone exercising his right of free speech! How awful! This is pretty tame stuff compared to your accusations. 3. During WWII the Biblical morality principles were more entrenched in America than after the hippy era. When 9/11 happened, Biblical morality was at an all time low up to that point. Pat and Jerry could cite Biblical scripture pertaining to warnings by the Biblical god to nations that departed from moral principles in scripture. Pat and Jerry could cite scripture that predicted any damn thing they liked, as they share(d) your bent for twisting the Bible into whatever suits the current agenda. One of the few genuinely controversial things that Wright says in the article is that America is partly to blame for 9/11, an argument that is far from unusual. You seem to be implying that America is entirely to blame, due to its sinful ways inviting divine hissy-fits. So, you and Pat and Jerry appear to outdo Wright in this arena, as Molbiogirl points out. 4. Jerry and Pat's warnings were across the board racially. They were not incessantly, year in and year out fomenting racial hatred toward Jews or any other race as were Jeremiah Wright's. Again, I must have developed hysterical blindness when I read the anti-Semetic bits, as I didn't see any. Again, I invite you to point them out to me. Until then, this seems like more smear tactic bullshit. 1. Perhaps you were a bit sleepy when you read me. My terminology was implicate rather than specified. Wright implicated whites when he said to the effect that we were a KKK America. 2. Last evening I listened to the Mark Levin show. There are more segments to the tapes than what ABC cited. On the UTube you can hear some of the others. In one of them Wright stated that rich whites are the ones responsible for running this country thus implicating whites for the reason for America to be damned. I was thinking this was on the ABC segment as well but after listening again I see it isn't on that segment. 3. The anti-Semitism is implicated by that fact that Wright traveled to Lybia with Louis Farrakan and awarded Louis Farrakan for his contribution to society. Of course we all should be aware that Farrakan and the Nation of Islam is very anti-Semitic. Obama has chosen to be closely associated with this preacher who has been spewing this hatred for a long time. Wright's Farrakanish anti-Semitic rhetoric also is telling when he chastises America for supporting Israel insisting that we are supporting terrorism against the Palestinians. Of course the UTube segment clearly implicates racism here in that white America allegedly runs America. Has he forgotten Colin Powell and other blacks who helped shape American policy in the Mid-East? 4. This nonsense that Obama doesn't agree with all this racism and anti-Semitism doesn't wash. As Mark Levin correctly states, Obama along with his wife and children has been listening to this hateful racist propaganda preached to his congregation for many years. Then he equates him to an uncle who gets carried away. Nonsense! (abe: As Mark put it,) one doesn't choose who's his uncle. One chooses one's mentor and pastor for his family because he likes his ideals and his preaching. Edited by Buzsaw, : add phrase BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.5 |
Hi molbiogirl,
I hate to bust in here but I need some information in case I have been asleep. Do we have a presidential candidate that has been pastored by Pat Robertson for the past 20 years. As I don't want to vote for someone that would be just like Pat. You folks don't know much about religious people. People don't spend 20 years listening to a preacher and not agreeing with what he is preaching. They sure don't tithe (10% of what they make) if they don't agree with the message. It is to easy to go down the street to another church. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2641 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
2. Last evening I listened to the Mark Levin show. There are more segments to the tapes than what ABC cited. On the UTube you can hear some of the others. In one of them Wright stated that rich whites are the ones responsible for running this country thus implicating whites for the reason for America to be damned. I was thinking this was on the ABC segment as well but after listening again I see it isn't on that segment. I'm afraid I'm going to need more than your word, Buz. Let's see some documentation.
3. The anti-Semitism is implicated by that fact that Wright traveled to Lybia with Louis Farrakan and awarded Louis Farrakan for his contribution to society. Of course we all should be aware that Farrakan and the Nation of Islam is very anti-Semitic. Obama has chosen to be closely associated with this preacher who has been spewing this hatred for a long time. You have yet to show that Rev. Wright "spewed" anything. Again. Let's see some documentation. I had no trouble whatsoever finding dozens of anti-semitic quotes from Pat Robertson. Let's see what you can dig up on Rev. Wright, hm?
4. This nonsense that Obama doesn't agree with all this racism and anti-Semitism doesn't wash. As Mark Levin correctly states, Obama along with his wife and children has been listening to this hateful racist propaganda preached to his congregation for many years. Then he equates him to an uncle who gets carried away. Nonsense! (abe: As Mark put it,) one doesn't choose who's his uncle. One chooses one's mentor and pastor for his family because he likes his ideals and his preaching. Again. You have yet to show that Rev. Wright has spread "racist propoganda". Let's see some documentation.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 612 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Have you seen Obama's response to Rev Wright's remarks.?
It's at On My Faith and My Church | HuffPost Latest News
quote:
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
...unless they connect DIRECTLY to Obama.
As I see it, the views etc. of the Rev. Wright are on-topic. Bottom line - Drop the JF and PR stuff. It only obscures the real theme of this topic. I've very serious about this - Violations may result in suspensions. Adminnemooseus
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
KKK America huh? Well that is certainly fairly inflammatory, but it's just rhetoric. Face facts, America still has a race problem. It is well known that those executed by the US state are disproportionately black ( as evidenced here ). If I was keen on the same kind of rhetoric as Wright, I might call that state-sponsored lynching. He calls it KKK America. So what? He has a legitimate beef.
He implies that whites are to blame for racism against blacks. Big surprise. Did you expect him to blame the Chinese? I have a news flash for you; the vast majority of those running your country are rich whites.
3. The anti-Semitism is implicated by that fact that Wright traveled to Lybia with Louis Farrakan and awarded Louis Farrakan for his contribution to society. Well that does demonstrate extremely poor judgement on Wright's part; if it is true, which you haven't bothered to demonstrate. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying that it would be nice if you bothered to back this kind of thing up. We all know that Farrakhan is an asswipe. Farrakhan is anti-Semitic. That does not demonstrate that Wright is anti-Semitic. All you can do is say "Obama is bad, because he knows a guy who knows a guy who's anti-Semitic.". Pretty weak Buz.
Obama has chosen to be closely associated with this preacher who has been spewing this hatred for a long time. Fundamentally dishonest. You have repeatedly failed to demonstrate that Wright has "spewed" any hate against Jews or anyone else.
Wright's Farrakanish anti-Semitic rhetoric also is telling when he chastises America for supporting Israel insisting that we are supporting terrorism against the Palestinians. Let's be quite clear. Criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic. I happen to agree with Wright on this one.
Of course the UTube segment clearly implicates racism here in that white America allegedly runs America. The one you didn't link to?
Has he forgotten Colin Powell and other blacks who helped shape American policy in the Mid-East? Probably. I know I have. A few black people in power changes little. Black people still get a raw deal, and whites still run the show. Britain is far from perfect in this department either by the way.
4. This nonsense that Obama doesn't agree with all this racism and anti-Semitism doesn't wash. As Mark Levin correctly states, Obama along with his wife and children has been listening to this hateful racist propaganda preached to his congregation for many years. Then he equates him to an uncle who gets carried away. Nonsense! (abe: As Mark put it,) one doesn't choose who's his uncle. One chooses one's mentor and pastor for his family because he likes his ideals and his preaching. Again, do you really think that all of your congregation agree with every word you say? Sounds like amazing arrogance to me. You have yet to demonstrate that Wright has said anything racist or anti-Semitic, so it doesn't really matter what Obama thinks of him. Mutate and Survive
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Granny:
1. For the record, I am not a preacher and do not have a congregation who listens to me. I am a full time merchant; sole proprietor who deals in antiques and estate liquidations, etc and have been for over 40 years in Southern California and NY state. . . 2. You can go here and access all of the tapes relative to what I've been claiming. 3. It's all over the net about Wright's trip to Libya and award to Farrakhan for his contribution to society. I'll see if I can come up with a sound documentation. In the mean time I suggest you do some googling and you'll find plenty on this. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Granny writes: We all know that Farrakhan is an asswipe. Farrakhan is anti-Semitic. That does not demonstrate that Wright is anti-Semitic. All you can do is say "Obama is bad, because he knows a guy who knows a guy who's anti-Semitic.". Pretty weak Buz. Granny, think a minute about your argument: 1. Farrakhan is an asswipe.2. Farrakhan is anti-Semitic. 3. Wright travels to Libya (Muslim dictatorial nation) with Nation Of Islam's darling, Louis Farrakhan. 4. Wright's church awards Farrakhan with high award for (ABE: contribution) 5. Wright is not anti-Semitic. (ABE: 6. Obama, his wife and two young children listen to this preacher for 23 years (all the years of the children). 7. Obaman's anti-Semiticsm is not in question? ) You tell me, Granny, what's wrong with this picture? Edited by Buzsaw, : as moted in context Edited by Buzsaw, : cited in context BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5819 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
One of the commandments is not bearing false witness. It is a shame to see you treading very heavily on that line. And for gossipy stuff nonetheless.
Outside of faith, what you are doing is also a logical fallacy... guilt by association. Obama has publicly answered the recent innuendo you seem to have swallowed hook line and sinker. Have you not seen his response? No human is perfect. Obama does not have to find everything about what Wright thinks or does perfect, in order to find inspiration from him. He has been in a community where Wright is a minister, not God. Leaving that community might be a lot harder than leaving a minister, because of some things that minister says or does. Although you have picked out a few statements and incidents by Wright, you have not shown that was this guy's predominate message day in and day out for those 23 years, nor that Obama would even be aware of these statements or actions. How many people in a congregation know everything that their minister is up to, or agree with everything he says? As for Farrakan, he is anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish... though as he is in support of Palestinians and others semitic peoples it is hard to call him anti-semitic. Let's agree to call him racist. What do the actions of Wright with respect to Farrakan have anything to do with Obama? As it is, Farrakan is a very powerful person in the black community, especially Chicago. It would be odd not to find some kind of connection between a prominent black person having lived and risen to power in Chicago and Farrakan. If that's all one needs to make a case against someone then I guess we can just rule out all blacks from Chicago from entering politics, eh? You are judging a man, and casting innuendos at his feet. You have shown no activity by the man himself to support your fears and so you look to those about him. Is there some reason you cannot trust his own words and activities, beyond your personal fears? For shame Buz. This election could be about issues with some excellent candidates on all sides running. Why are YOU bringing it down? Edited by Silent H, : +case against h "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
OK, Silent Holmes, consider this:
Say Bush was proactive in Jerry Falwell's church for 23 years, having contributed megabucks to the ministry and having had him as prime spiritual mentor for his family for all this time. Would you say that Bush would then think like Jerry Falwell relative to homosexality, access to Heaven and other controversial matters? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Would you say that Bush would then think like Jerry Falwell relative to homosexality, access to Heaven and other controversial matters? Well, for one thing, Falwell is well known and his statements make news -- it would be hard for Bush, or anyone, to claim he didn't know what Falwell stood for. But more importantly, Bush has a record of public statements and political actions by which one can figure out his stand. Using past associations to try to judge a new politician without a record is certainly fair; but when a politician does have a record, then I think his actual recorded behavior says more than his past associations. Obama also has a record. He was an Illinois state senator of 8 years, and he has been a US senator for 2 years -- certainly long enought to have been involved in legislation. What does Obama's public statements, his political activism, and his legislative history say about his stands on the issues that you are bringing up? ...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5819 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
Chiroptera has beat me to the punch on the issue of track record in public works v associations. But I think I have a few more points to add, taking your argument at face value...
1) I couldn't care less who Bush thinks like regarding religious issues. My main concern is what he believes regarding how our nation should solve its problems. If he moves to mix his religion with our legal system and practices then I would be concerned. 2) If his connection to Falwell was largely connected to the community, as it is for Obama, then I wouldn't necessarily assume Bush agreed with everything Falwell thinks. 3) In any case, I would try to find his record to see what his stance has been on issues, and trust his word regarding his position on Falwell's commentary. 4) I would not launch an entire case against Bush, solely on the actions of people around him. and finally, to throw your own argument back in your face... 5) Bush and his family HAVE been working in oil (among other things) with the Saudi Royal family for many years (IIRC more than 23), as well as the Taliban. We have recent pictures of Bush holding the King's hand as our gas prices go up. Pretty much the same can be said for Cheney. They were both associated with the nations directly related to attacking our nation... before and after the attacks. So... how are they escaping your blame game, when a guy who just went to a popular church gets all this muck thrown at him? They ALSO claim to be Xian, but why should I believe them given their association, and the fact that they've left our nation and its military weakened, and our enemies (or competitors) stronger? Edited by Silent H, : clarity h "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2641 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
2. You can go here and access all of the tapes relative to what I've been claiming. No. You claimed that Rev. Wright is "anti-semitic". Nowhere in that clip does Rev. Wright mention Semites of any stripe. You claimed that Rev. Wright is "racist". Nowhere in that clip does Rev. Wright make anything even remotely resembling a racist statement. You claimed that Rev. Wright espouses "radical black power". Nowhere in that clip is Rev. Wright radical. In fact, he makes no call to action of any sort. What Rev. Wright does in this clip is bitch at length about the experiences black folks have had (and continue to have) in this country. And the ongoing racism in this country is no secret, Buz. If that clip's all you got, you got nothin'. Why don't you google a bit more and see if you can't support your assertions with a bit more evidence, hm?
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Mobiogirl, I believe you can access all of the tapes at this site, some of which will fill the ticket. Let me know if it doesn't work for you and I'll try to come up with what is needed to substantiate my claims.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Holmes, you need to go and figure. If the man has preached this sort of political rhetoric for the past few years, you can assume that that's his mindset. By association it is crystal clear that Obama likes what this preacher thinks and has aquessed to it for 23 years. He is willing to subject his impressionable young children to this stuff. This man is and has been Obama's and Obama's family's prime idealistic and spiritual mentor for 23 years. Should the US of A take the risk of installing such a person among our billions to be the top man and the commander in chief of our armed forces in the USA and for that matter of the entire planet?
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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