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Author Topic:   Teleological Science?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2496 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 106 of 114 (460615)
03-17-2008 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Eclogite
03-17-2008 8:43 AM


Eclogite writes:
It is central to it. Again, in summary: there was abundant evidence for plate tectonics; the evidence was set aside because it contradicted current dogma; it took a change in paradigm to allow major advances in detailed understanding.
But is there "abundant evidence" for teleology? In making your comparison with plate tectonics, you seem to be ignoring the fact that a teleological viewpoint was the paradigm for a very, very long time. Rather than being a recent idea that conservatives are objecting to, it's more accurately viewed as an ancient idea which a small rump of conservative scientists are clinging to.
Interestingly, they generally seem to be conservative politically, socially, and religiously, as well, which doesn't really indicate a high level of objectivity in their science. They're certainly not coming forward with abundant evidence.
William Paley's watch analogy is 206 years old, and the young Darwin was a supporter of the prevailing paradigm of his times.
Do you really expect the resistance to be less when the paradigm under threat lies at the heart of modern science?
The paradigm that's under threat in the western world is not at the heart of modern science.
Levels of belief in Christianity have declined considerably in all western countries since the middle of the last century. It's under threat. That's what the I.D. noise is really about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Eclogite, posted 03-17-2008 8:43 AM Eclogite has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 107 of 114 (460645)
03-17-2008 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Eclogite
03-17-2008 8:43 AM


Re: Can we know?
Nowhere have I stated that scientists should bear every possible theory in mind. If you believe I have done so, please indicate precisely where.
It is implicate in your argument. If scientists must consider teleology as an explanation for anything they study, then why should they disregard anything at all? As I asked before, should scientists consider the possibility of witchcraft in their work? If they must consider an idea such as teleology in nature, then why not fairies, or some other phenomenon, for which the evidence is on a par with teleology. It is merely the inevitable logical conclusion of your argument. Unless you are suggesting that scientists should consider absolutely everything, then you need to provide some reason why teleology should be considered above, say, voodoo.
The reason that some theories are given more consideration than others is very simple; evidence. There is no evidence for teleology. If there were, it would be considered. Since there is not, it is ignored. If you can find some evidence for teleology then it would be taken into account in science. Until then, it remains on a par with witchcraft and rain dances. Teleology has had its day and science has moved on to considering ideas that are actually useful.
I am pointing out that the vast majority of scientific work is about filling in details, not achieving breakthroughs in understanding. This requires a quiet acceptance of the prevailing paradigm within the field and a mandatory rejection of data or concepts hostile to it.
What the majority of scientific work actually entails is the making of observations. This doesn't require the acceptance or rejection of anything. There is little point in questioning the prevailing paradigm unless one has an observation that seems to contradict it. Contrary to what you seem to think, the search for such observations is the very bread and butter of modern science.
I did not provide a reference for Kuhn since this work is almost as well known as 'On the Origin of Species'.
Thanks for providing the reference. I would dispute that Kuhn's work is as well known as Origins though. I just popped both titles into Googlefight, and Kuhn's book came out with a mere 1,850,000 results, compared to 7,410,000 for Origins.
Here is a quote from 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions', where Kuhn is discussing paradigm shift;
quote:
First, the new candidate must seem to resolve some outstanding and generally recognized problem that can be met in no other way. Second, the new paradigm must promise to preserve a relatively large part of the concrete problem solving activity that has accrued to science through its predecessors.
Teleology is very far from passing these tests, especially the first.
As for plate tectonics, it is a very poor comparison to modern science; all this happened many years ago and the standard of scientific work has been refined and improved since then.
I am not entirely clear what 'my method' is. I think you mean not closing off avenues of research, or alternative explanations on dogmatic grounds.
Well, is that your position? If so, you must recognise that it is not possible to consider all possibilities at once. We must necessarily concentrate on the most useful concepts. The line has to be drawn somewhere; this is not dogmatism, it is practical necessity.
The reason that plate tectonics/continental drift took so long (half a century, plus) to be accepted was precisely because 'my method' was not followed. Instead geologists and geophysicists rejected evidence that pointed towards drifitng continents and plate tectonics on the dogmatic grounds that 'it was not possible'.
They rejected it because they lacked key pieces of evidence that would allow them to make cohesive sense of the idea. From the wiki article on plate tectonics;
quote:
The discovery of radium and its associated heating properties in 1896 prompted a re-examination of the apparent age of the Earth,[3] since this had been estimated by its cooling rate and assumption the Earth's surface radiated like a black body.[4] Those calculations implied that, even if it started at red heat, the Earth would have dropped to its present temperature in a few tens of millions of years. Armed with the knowledge of a new heat source, scientists reasoned it was credible that the Earth was much older, and also that its core was still sufficiently hot to be liquid.
Before information like this was available, the plate hypothesis lacked crucial details of evidence that it needed in order to make it credible. Without the knowledge of radium, the theory seemed to have a serious hole in it. Still, it was nonetheless pursued, just as you suggest that left-field ideas should be. It was pursued because, whatever the problems with the idea, it did have evidence in its favour. This is where your comparison between plate tectonics and teleology breaks down. There just isn't any evidence for teleology. The two examples are not equivalent.
What is important about both the example of plate tectonics and H.pylori is that they were both accepted eventually. They were not stopped, merely delayed. You are quite right in pointing out that stubborn adherence to an existing paradigm is one of the potential flaws in how science is carried out, but insisting that scientists consider outdated and useless hypotheses in order to counter it is absurd. Scientists must keep an open mind and be receptive to new explanations, but if you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out.
There is little opportunity to explore the suggestions of a teleological character to some of nature's fundamental characteristics if we exclude these on an a priori basis.
You say this as though there were any such suggestions. There aren't. If I'm wrong, please point out where these "suggestions" can be found.
Your example of ulcers and bacteria merely confirms my point. On a comparatively minor concept (unless of course you suffer from ulcers)the researchers encountered great hostility from the holders of the cherished current paradigm. Do you really expect the resistance to be less when the paradigm under threat lies at the heart of modern science?
You have yet to demonstrate that lack of interest in teleology lies at the heart of modern science.
Bottom line; should scientists retain an open mind? Of course.
Should non-evidenced concepts such as teleology be considered in the everyday work of research scientists? Not unless you are willing to consider every conceivable non-evidenced hypothesis. Unless you can provide a reason to consider teleology, it will continue to be listed amongst the infinite number of ideas that are not considered, from teleology to time travel.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Eclogite, posted 03-17-2008 8:43 AM Eclogite has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Brad McFall, posted 03-19-2008 7:34 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2716 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 108 of 114 (460787)
03-18-2008 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Eclogite
03-17-2008 8:43 AM


Re: Can we know?
Eclogite writes:
There is little opportunity to explore the suggestions of a teleological character to some of nature's fundamental characteristics if we exclude these on an a priori basis.
But, they are not excluded a priori: they are excluded a posteriori. The reason the theory of evolution by natural selection dominates modern biology is because it was proven superior to the teleological concepts with which it competed. It was superior at explaining the available data, so it supplanted creationism.
Science doesn't exclude teleology dogmatically. The tests were already done, and teleology lost. Science excludes it empirically. End of story. Peruse through this thread, and look at all the ideas Quetzal and Grizzly and everyone else proposed. If you think our ideas are bad (i.e. wouldn't be indicative of/necessarily related to teleology), present your own here. That's what this thread is for, anyway.

There was a point to this [post], but it has temporarily escaped the chronicler's mind. -modified from Life, the Universe and Everything, Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Eclogite, posted 03-17-2008 8:43 AM Eclogite has not replied

  
Eclogite
Junior Member (Idle past 5864 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 109 of 114 (460844)
03-19-2008 12:26 PM


Please, no replies to this message. --Admin
Fellow Posters,
I joined this forum to engage in discussion on evolution, hoping both to learn and to contribute. I anticipated a range of views and experience amongst you all. I did not expect such a bewildering ignorance of the currency of teleological arguments for both the origin of the universe, emergence of consciousness and everything in between.
It is as if someone had said 'Evolution! Oh, I don't think anyone believes in that. There is no evidence for it.' I might expect such a response from a creationist; I did not expect it from a group of scientifically inclined individuals with, allegedly, an interest in evolution.
The reactions from most of you smack of dogma and serve to confirm the very point I am making: the footsoldiers of science have closed the door on teleology. Fortunately some of the original thinkers are at least looking out of the window.
I currently have neither the time nor the inclination to devote to laying out in detail the evidence for teleology, or the philosophical arguments in favour of according it a measure of attention. (Nor, for that matter, will I indulge anyone by explaining the difference between proof and evidence.)
I am disappointed, and I suspect you will be either irate, amused or indifferent. I post this
a) so that the absence of responses on my part to several of the points raised is not interpreted as acceptance of their validity.
b) as an apology for withdrawing, at least for the time being, from this discussion.
c) as a thank you for alerting me to the need for a cogent, focused explanation of the value of examining nature alert for hints (or falsifications) of teleology.
I shall search the literature for the latter or write the damn thing myself.
Edited by Admin, : Add note at top.

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13014
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 110 of 114 (460846)
03-19-2008 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Eclogite
03-19-2008 12:26 PM


We try to keep discussion focused on topic-related issues rather than the shortcomings of the participants.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Eclogite, posted 03-19-2008 12:26 PM Eclogite has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5051 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 111 of 114 (460881)
03-19-2008 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Granny Magda
03-17-2008 4:05 PM


Re: can we remember?
quote:
Here is a quote from 'The Structure of Scientific Revolutions', where Kuhn is discussing paradigm shift;
quote:
First, the new candidate must seem to resolve some outstanding and generally recognized problem that can be met in no other way. Second, the new paradigm must promise to preserve a relatively large part of the concrete problem solving activity that has accrued to science through its predecessors.
Teleology is very far from passing these tests, especially the first.
Up thread, Bluejay raised the issue of changes in the genetic code overtime
EvC Forum: Teleological Science?
quote:
This supports the notion that the code itself is also capable of adapting and "evolving" alongside the organisms that use it. It also suggests that the genetic code is not a teleological design, as is often quoted in creationists' "arguments from ignorance."
His notion of “alongside organisms” might simply be the FORMAL similarity of the relation of potential and kinetic energy for a mass in gravity (organism) WITH charges under Coulomb force (metabolism) GIVING the creatures side being thus accounted in. That is not something possible in 'organic soup'.
The explanation of the changes in this code, I givehere IS considerably less clear than my last background post which in substance called for us to discuss some subjects.
But I can not rule out teleology if indeed this is a difference of rotations caused by differences of 4 and 3 dimensions. It might be possible to do that thought, but I have not thought that far through the details.
The Christian presentation of biotic rights however, does not go into this detail and thus it does not pass the “test” ( I was using it to get a very specific as opposed to less clear 'heirarchy')however here, if I end up predicting what codes can go with what amino acids and other “instructions” (stop etc) and if this difference comes from within this Christian work then we may see it ”pass’. But ecloite is correct that science is not set up to do this work. It also doesn’t seem to be pursuing the specific physical proposal I made in the link either.
Strange enough.
This less clear idea (than a form of natural theology) is that Schrodinger's “a periodic crystal" being DNA is a proton reference system to which electron kinetic energy (being and in the opposite direction than the system’s potential energy) constrains the like charge repulsions (after for instance light removes an electron or x-rays mutate a gene) as Mendelian traits change over generations. This physicality implies some results in Macrothermodynamics but as to the code, rotational energy is specific for the system.
This may be represented by the triplet (code) with the fourth base being someplace else in the genome (and subject to crossing over going out of code). Teleology may be immanent in the population expression of this but because we have not talked about gene frequencies per population and gene combinations in an individual AS NOT IMCOMPREHENSIBLE (seems to be in your “must the scientist have to study any and every ”cause’)and I have not worked that out completely in my own mind, I do not know if designs are still involved (this would implicate Gould reference to "reptile design") or if more random factors come into play there.
Teleology remains an open object of thought where ecloqite begs off.
Edited by Brad McFall, : letter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Granny Magda, posted 03-17-2008 4:05 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Granny Magda, posted 03-19-2008 9:37 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 112 of 114 (460887)
03-19-2008 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Brad McFall
03-19-2008 7:34 PM


Re: can we remember?
Hi Brad,
I shan't pretend that I was able to follow your discussion of genetic coding etc. I'm afraid you lost me there.
What I will say is that if you want to look for evidence of teleology in nature, then be my guest. What I object to is the suggestion made by eclogite that scientists ought to be looking for it.
As you say, we cannot entirely rule out teleological explanations, but we do not have convincing evidence of design in nature at present. Indeed, all the observations of biology seem to be entirely consistent with a purposeless universe. Until real evidence for design in nature is found, I see no reason why professional scientists ought to be obliged to give this non-evidence based concept any kind of special favour as compared to any other fanciful idea.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Brad McFall, posted 03-19-2008 7:34 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Brad McFall, posted 03-21-2008 5:57 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
mrjoad2
Junior Member (Idle past 5717 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 02-08-2008


Message 113 of 114 (461033)
03-21-2008 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Blue Jay
03-06-2008 5:51 PM


Re: Decks of Cards and Ulterior Motives
Bluejay writes
Teleology doesn't necessarily have to be determinism, though.
How could you detect design without a determined result? Isn't this the best of both worlds? The universe is designed, but it is designed in such a way there is no perceptible difference between random and non-random causes. I think the teleological argument implies a level of determinism, which seems to be very subjective. I know this tends to be a very simplistic approach, however... Occam's razor.
Bluejay writes:
Just because there is an overall purpose, does there also have to be zero tolerance for peripheral, individual goals?
No, not necessarily, but I again I'll ask what would be the point, and what's the difference between "ulterior motives" and random development?
Bluejay writes:
I would submit that, because we humans are allowed to hold a wide range of belief systems, any god that exists does allow ulterior motives to persist.
In the framework of the teleological argument, I understand, however design and purpose still have to be proven to label peripheral events "ulterior motives" (If I understand you're definition these would be variations from the primary purpose) , rather then just calling them random occurrences.

This message is a reply to:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5051 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 114 of 114 (461057)
03-21-2008 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Granny Magda
03-19-2008 9:37 PM


Re:what science might do
Well, you ARE correct about that.
I do agree that "oughts" can and probably should be kept seperate from searching for facts etc. The whole idea of a real notion of "a priori" pretty much necessitates the seperation (mentally).
That however is a very general view or statement while there can be the social observation that science itself in its pursuit of discovery and invention, in its operation that Kuhn insisted on( that ticked off Popper (in debate in the early 60s at Oxford (L Pierce Williams was in attendance but later failed me in an independent study where I attempted to relate Feynman's view on color(QED ot the Goethe/Newton debate (via Figenbaum etc)))to snake color patterns)) is actually hostile to minds dependent on such seperation.
I can not be certain that the claims made by R. Boyd that I, Brad McFall, "was getting religous" on him do not reflect rather the need for a more tolerant and inclusive meta system for science overall. "Ought" is however a little too strong indeed. Perhaps I should dig up my source on the 60s debate between Kuhn and Popper to see perhaps what eclogite might be defended to have said.
The trick for the scientist REALLY IS to select what facts to work with. I only tried to do so.
Brad
Edited by Brad McFall, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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