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Author Topic:   the new and improved obama thread
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 196 of 237 (460880)
03-19-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Silent H
03-19-2008 12:49 AM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naive as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy -- particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.
But I have asserted a firm conviction -- a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people -- that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.
Would that work for you?
Yes and No.
When a candidate responds similarly and realistically across the board on the issues of Health Care, the Economy, and Foreign Affairs, then I would certainly be swayed. Although I do not doubt his sincerity and agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed, I do see the speach primarily as damage control.
The speech itself was brilliant, but if it were given for it's own sake, before the Wright affair became public, it would have made much more of an impression on me than it has. I would have concluded that they don't come any more genuine than this.
I try to retain my objectivity and I have already admitted I am a cold-hearted cynic when it comes to politics and the motivations of those who seek office. I have never really been swayed over by a politician where I have said "Yes, that's the guy." Like always, my decision will probably come down to the wire as I digest more and more of the happenings on the campaign trail and see what these candidates are really about.
It is a bit difficult with Obama because he is relatively new on the scene and to be honest, until his name came up on the campaign trail I did not even know he was a Senator.
McCain's flap yesterday on Iran has given me a bit of a pause as I wonder how someone can be that out of touch with the situation to make a foul-up like that. He also has a record of changing his position too many times on too many issues. At times, it's hard to figure the guy out.
Clinton I tend to dislike on a personal level. To me, she comes across as totally fake, manipulating, and insincere. She does have experience and clout on the Hill, however.
Obama comes across to me as the most genuine and likeable of the three. If he can retain the same genuineness on other issues, I will be probably be swayed in the long run. I like what he has said and he should just come out with it in a similar fashion on other issues ..e.g. -- 'I know I want Universal Health Care but the chances that its going to happen in one administration is remote.' We need to be realistic on issues and the politicians need to stop delivering empty promises that serve only as rallying cries and fashionable campaign slogans.
When they do make blanket campaign goals, I want to hear How, When, Where? Unfortunately, we never do. "Read my Lips....."
Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Silent H, posted 03-19-2008 12:49 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 197 of 237 (460895)
03-20-2008 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Grizz
03-19-2008 7:32 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Well your analysis and position seems fair enough to me. I guess I'm not as cynical, but that is a difference in personal makeup.
While I think the speech was initiated as a piece of damage control, because of course he did have to say something, he managed to take it where most politicians would not. He elevated the topic instead of going with hype and soundbyte. I guess this is to say that he turned personal damage control into national damage control. That impresses me.
On healthcare, I believe Obama actually did say that it wouldn't be fixed by his administration. The idea was to begin putting in measures to move healthcare reform along. Maybe I got him wrong but I thought that was one of the differences between him and Hillary, who is suggesting that her plan will fix it. Personally I think her plan might be a bit better, though I agree with Obama that mandates do not guarantee people get insured.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Grizz, posted 03-19-2008 7:32 PM Grizz has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 198 of 237 (460896)
03-20-2008 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Buzsaw
03-18-2008 11:18 PM


Huckabee on Obama and Wright
Hey buz, did you see Huckabee defending both Obama and Wright? If so, I'm wondering what you thought. Certainly I would not expect you to blacken Huck's Xian credentials.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Buzsaw, posted 03-18-2008 11:18 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 199 of 237 (460899)
03-20-2008 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Silent H
03-20-2008 12:46 AM


Re: Huckabee on Obama and Wright
Huckabee shows a lot of class
Huckabee Defends Obama . and the Rev. Wright
March 19, 2008 8:53 PM
After joking that he's leasing a hot dog stand in Manhattan, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee on MSNBC's Morning Joe early this morning defended Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., on the Rev. Wright front.
And, in fact, he defended Rev. Wright, too.
MIKE HUCKABEE: There are two different stories -- one is Obama’s reaction, the other one is the Rev. Wright’s speech itself. And I think that, you know, Obama has handled this about as well as anybody could. And I agree, it’s a very historic speech. I think that it was an important one and one that he had to deliver, and he couldn’t wait. The sooner he made it, maybe the quicker that this becomes less of the issue. Otherwise, it was the only thing that was the issue in his entire campaign. And I thought he handled it very, very well.
And he made the point, and I think it's a valid one, that you can't hold the candidate responsible for everything that people around him may say or do. You just can't -- whether it's me, whether it's Obama, anybody else. But he did distance himself from the very vitriolic statements.
Now, the second story. It's interesting to me that there are some people on the left that are having to be very uncomfortable with what Louis Wright said, when they all were all over a Jerry Falwell or anyone on the right who said things that they found very awkward and uncomfortable years ago. Many times those were statements lifted out of the context of a larger sermon.
Sermons, after all, are rarely written word-for-word by pastors like Rev. Wright, who are delivering them extemporaneously, and caught up in the emotion of the moment. There are things that sometimes get said, that if you put them on paper and looked at them in print, you'd say, "Well, I didn't mean to say it quite like that."
MSNBC HOST JOE SCARBOROUGH: But, but you never came close to saying five days after September 11 that America deserved what it got -- or that the American government invented AIDS...
HUCKABEE: Not defending his statements.
SCARBOROUGH: Oh, I know you're not. I know you're not. I'm just wondering though: For a lot of people ... would you not guess that there are a lot of independent voters in Arkansas that vote for Democrats sometimes, and vote for Republicans sometimes, that are sitting here wondering how Barack Obama's spiritual mentor would call the United States the US-KKK?
HUCKABEE: I mean, those were outrageous statements, and nobody can defend the content of them.
SCARBOROUGH: But what's the impact on voters in Arkansas? Swing voters.
HUCKABEE: I don't think we know. If this were October, I think it would have a dramatic impact. But it's not October. It's March. And I don't believe that by the time we get to October this is going to be the defining issue of the campaign and the reason that people vote.
And one other thing I think we've got to remember: As easy as it is for those of us who are white to look back and say, "That's a terrible statement," I grew up in a very segregated South, and I think that you have to cut some slack. And I'm going to be probably the only conservative in America who's going to say something like this, but I'm just telling you: We've got to cut some slack to people who grew up being called names, being told, "You have to sit in the balcony when you go to the movie. You have to go to the back door to go into the restaurant. And you can't sit out there with everyone else. There's a separate waiting room in the doctor's office. Here's where you sit on the bus." And you know what? Sometimes people do have a chip on their shoulder and resentment. And you have to just say, I probably would too. I probably would too. In fact, I may have had a more, more of a chip on my shoulder had it been me.
JOE SCARBOROUGH: It's the Atticus Finch line about walking a mile in somebody else's shoes. I remember when Ronald Reagan got shot in 1981. There were some black students in my school that started applauding and said they hoped that he died. And you just sat there and of course you were angry at first, and then you walked out and started scratching your head, going, "Boy, there is some deep resentment there."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Silent H, posted 03-20-2008 12:46 AM Silent H has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 200 of 237 (460941)
03-20-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Grizz
03-19-2008 7:32 PM


Damage Control v Healing Damage
First to GDR, thanks for the assist with the transcript, I had seen it on video and did not feel like writing a transcript.
Now to Grizz. I've been thinking about your comment that Obama's speech was damage control and that you would have been more impressed if he had made it before (and without) the scandal. The more I think about it the more I disagree with your cynicism.
To start with I think if he had made a speech like that at the outset of his campaign, he would have been derided as making race a part of this presidential election. Cynics would have likely commented that he had prepared a brilliant speech in a position of safety and threw it out there without any reason to have done so, other than to look good, and play off his multicultural background. He would have been "inventing" a crisis and division where there was none.
That this speech was a response to a crisis... what would normally be called damage control... is what makes it so powerful a statement about Obama.
Normally in this type of situation, where mud is being thrown at a candidate, effective damage control is the verbal equivalent of dodging or catching that mud and throwing some clever shots back.
In this specific case, Obama patiently scraped off the mud thrown at himself and his rival, indeed protecting his rival from future mudslinging, patiently built some mud bricks, stacked them neatly, stepped aside and said "Let's use these to build a house we can all live in."
He didn't just take the high road, he took a road I had not known existed. I know myself well enough to understand I would have been incapable of such action... but I wish I were. That's a leader to me.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Grizz, posted 03-19-2008 7:32 PM Grizz has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 201 of 237 (460979)
03-20-2008 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Silent H
03-20-2008 3:00 PM


Re: Damage Control v Healing Damage
One other thing that impressed me about the speech was that Obama took the high road. The politically expedient thing to do would have been for him to reject his 20 year friendship. He didn't do that he stood by his friend even though it might cost him the election.
As far as I'm concerned that, more than anything else he has said or done, convinces me that he has the strength of character the loyalty and the judgment needed by someone who aspires to the presidency.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Silent H, posted 03-20-2008 3:00 PM Silent H has not replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5470 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 202 of 237 (460980)
03-20-2008 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Silent H
03-20-2008 3:00 PM


Re: Damage Control v Healing Damage
Now to Grizz. I've been thinking about your comment that Obama's speech was damage control and that you would have been more impressed if he had made it before (and without) the scandal. The more I think about it the more I disagree with your cynicism.
To start with I think if he had made a speech like that at the outset of his campaign, he would have been derided as making race a part of this presidential election. Cynics would have likely commented that he had prepared a brilliant speech in a position of safety and threw it out there without any reason to have done so, other than to look good, and play off his multicultural background. He would have been "inventing" a crisis and division where there was none.
That this speech was a response to a crisis... what would normally be called damage control... is what makes it so powerful a statement about Obama.
Normally in this type of situation, where mud is being thrown at a candidate, effective damage control is the verbal equivalent of dodging or catching that mud and throwing some clever shots back.
In this specific case, Obama patiently scraped off the mud thrown at himself and his rival, indeed protecting his rival from future mudslinging, patiently built some mud bricks, stacked them neatly, stepped aside and said "Let's use these to build a house we can all live in."
He didn't just take the high road, he took a road I had not known existed. I know myself well enough to understand I would have been incapable of such action... but I wish I were. That's a leader to me.
Well, I can live with that. You are correct in saying he would have been taken to the woodshed for playing the race card.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 237 (460989)
03-20-2008 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by molbiogirl
03-19-2008 1:03 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Mobiogirl, I say go ahead and put Francis's words in Obama's pastor's mouth because for the most part they were true. The things Shaeffer said were relative to current events as well as true and Biblical.
Wright's hate-rich-whitey America anti-Israel, pro Palestinian, and and other such diatribes by this man having close ties to Nation of Islam were either false or not relative to the current state of the nation. They were divisive and hate-fomenting speeches in a church pulpit where political speeches citing opposing election candidates were not suppose to be.
Shaeffer's son who admits to opposing the views of his father has failed to present a viable analogy.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by molbiogirl, posted 03-19-2008 1:03 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 237 (460991)
03-20-2008 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Silent H
03-20-2008 12:46 AM


Re: Huckabee on Obama and Wright
I see Hucksterbee isn't as intelligent as I previously thought him to be. He's obviously either ignorant on Wright and Obama or wants in the winner's cabinet, whoever it is. He's likely been too busy to become apprised on these two chums.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Silent H, posted 03-20-2008 12:46 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 209 by Silent H, posted 03-21-2008 1:05 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 237 (460994)
03-20-2008 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Buzsaw
03-20-2008 8:38 PM


Re: Huckabee on Obama and Wright
Whew! Aren't you glad he didn't get the nomination?

Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy. -- Wendell Berry

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2008 8:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 206 of 237 (461004)
03-20-2008 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Buzsaw
03-20-2008 8:20 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
The things Shaeffer said were relative to current events as well as true and Biblical.
Um. Ye---eeeah.
The only difference is ... that which Rev. Wright mentioned is documented fact.
That which Francis Shaeffer mentioned is undocumented fantasy.
Wright's hate-rich-whitey America anti-Israel, pro Palestinian, and and other such diatribes ...
Buzkins. No matter how many times you say it, Rev. Wright's sermons mention nothing of Israel or Palestine.
Shaeffer's son who admits to opposing the views of his father has failed to present a viable analogy.
Big surprise. The old white guy (pssssst ... Buz ... that's you) doesn't get it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2008 8:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 207 of 237 (461006)
03-21-2008 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by molbiogirl
03-20-2008 11:56 PM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
Since I'm not at all christian religious, I've been staying out of this conversation all this time. I just want to say now that it's incredible how the conservatives could boil Rev. Wright's thirty some year career as well as one of his congregation's member's into 30 seconds of video clip.

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 208 of 237 (461007)
03-21-2008 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Taz
03-21-2008 12:24 AM


Re: Transcript of Obama Speech
True Believer writes:
Since I'm not at all christian religious, I've been staying out of this conversation all this time. I just want to say now that it's incredible how the conservatives could boil Rev. Wright's thirty some year career as well as one of his congregation's member's into 30 seconds of video clip.
Don't lump all of us conservatives together.

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 Message 207 by Taz, posted 03-21-2008 12:24 AM Taz has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 209 of 237 (461008)
03-21-2008 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Buzsaw
03-20-2008 8:38 PM


Re: Huckabee on Obama and Wright
I see Hucksterbee isn't as intelligent as I previously thought him to be.
Wow, so its anything goes, huh? I heard that Jesus stood up for Wright and Obama as well, he's totally forgiven them. Guess that makes him the Islamic tool as well.
Seriously though, what if Obama wins and he turns out to be a decent president who does a lot for this nation? Wouldn't that make you very very wrong?

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Buzsaw, posted 03-20-2008 8:38 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 237 (461062)
03-21-2008 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Silent H
03-21-2008 1:05 AM


Re: Huckabee on Obama and Wright
Holmes, perhaps (I say perhape) he would suit you and most folks here fine. He's a liberal socialist, he thinks rich whitey has always run the nation, being the reason for America's problems and his pastor/mentor has ties implicating him as pro-Palestinian, anti Israel.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Silent H, posted 03-21-2008 1:05 AM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by DrJones*, posted 03-21-2008 8:27 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
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