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Author
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Topic: Super Evolution and the Flood
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Re: List o' mammals
graft2vine writes: So, go ahead and proceed Taz... I don't have any better suggestion than what I presented earlier about using Arc capacity to determine kinds.
Are you saying there really was a superevolution involved between now and 6 thousand years ago that produced all the species today?
I don't know anything about DNA testing, but it seems it would have to be very accurate. I mean, if they have a margin of error of 5%, then they could conclude the chimp to be your dad.
Just so you know, for someone like myself that actually have worked in a genetics lab and did regular work on DNA testing, this comment demonstrates ignorance on an annoying level.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 60 by graft2vine, posted 03-01-2008 6:54 PM | | graft2vine has replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 65 of 173 (459245)
03-05-2008 12:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Taz
02-26-2008 11:35 PM
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Re: List o' mammals
Boy, did this thread die fast without me trying to keep it above water. I've been very very busy lately. Only about 30 minutes a day of free time to go on the internet, and I'd rather use most of it reading news. Ok, so since there hasn't been any objection from YECs, I take it that my last list of mammals is acceptable. Here it is again. Acouchi Anteater Ape Armadillo Badger Bat Bear Beaver buffalo Camel Capybara Caracal Cheetah Chinchilla Cow Deer Degu Dog Elephant Elk Ferret Fox Giraffe Goat Guanaco Hippo Horse Hyena Hyrax Kangaroo Koala Leopard Lion Manatee Mole rat Monkey Mouflon Mouse Oryx Peccary Pig Platypus Porcupine Possum Prairie dog Rabbit Raccoon Rat Rhino Rock cavy Sheep Shrew Skunk Sloth Squirrel Tapir Tazmanian Devil Tenrec Tiger Vicugna Wolverine Zebra Let us move on to reptiles. Anole Chameleon Crocodile Gecko Horned Lizard Iquana Skink Snake Tortoise Turtle You know what, off the top of my head I can't think of that many "kinds" of reptiles. I'd appreciate some help.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Taz, posted 02-26-2008 11:35 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 69 of 173 (459339)
03-06-2008 12:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 66 by Asgara
03-05-2008 10:42 AM
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Re: Encyclopedia of Life
Uh, not all of us are literate in the art of scientific names for animal. I'd rather we work with common names.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by Asgara, posted 03-05-2008 10:42 AM | | Asgara has not replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 70 of 173 (459340)
03-06-2008 12:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 68 by AZPaul3
03-05-2008 2:19 PM
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Re: List o' mammals
AZPaul3 writes: To conserve space on the Ark and if Creationists involk super-evolution then we can wittle all reptiles to 4 "kinds": Lizard, serpant, crock and turtle.
Who said anything about conserving space? Remember that the YECs have always argued that there is this barrier between different kinds that prevent them from interbreeding. For example, a horse and a donkey are in fact the same kind because they producea mule. YECs generally don't talk at all about saving space on the ark. So, I'm going to take a leap of faith here and say that a kind is simply animal that can't possibly mate with another kind. I'm also making a leap of faith that anything that looks like a snake can mate with anything else that looks like a snake, making all snake species in one kind. Same goes with turtles. But a croc mating with an iquana... that's a little too much to ask. Remember that we have to make this as favorable to YECs as we possibly can without crossing this barrier between different kinds of animal.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by AZPaul3, posted 03-05-2008 2:19 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 72 of 173 (459363)
03-06-2008 11:10 AM
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Reply to: Message 71 by AZPaul3
03-06-2008 9:51 AM
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Re: List o' mammals
Then what do you make of a chameleon? How about the skink? Bearded dragon?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2008 9:51 AM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 75 by AZPaul3, posted 03-06-2008 6:38 PM | | Taz has not replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 79 of 173 (459415)
03-07-2008 12:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Blue Jay
03-06-2008 11:20 PM
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Re: List o' mammals
Bluejay writes: I thought the point was to make it sound as plausible as possible.
That's one goal, yes. But we also have to keep their rules in place. The entire YEC's argument against evolution rests on the claim that there is a barrier between each species/kind that would not allow them to interbreed or to turn into each other. By claiming 4 kinds in all of reptiles undermine this basis.
If we wanted to go for the Purists' version, we could just say God miraculously made the Ark big enough to fit all the animals and even provided enough internal sunlight for Noah to grow a self-sustaining greenhouse to feed all the herbivores, and milk trees, so Noah didn't have to milk the cows.
If we want to go by this route, we'd have to rethink our whole concept of spatial dimension.
Purists don't need explanations: only the people who want to sound plausible do. So, in order to maximize the plausibility of the entire issue, it's best to let them start with as many kinds as possible to minimize the rate of super-evolution since the Flood (naturally, this must be balanced with the space limitations on the Ark).
I still want some inputs from YECs, though. Where the hell are they? We normally have a whole bunch trying to rationalize the flood. Now that we have a thread dealing with the specifics of preserving every animal kind on Earth, they somewho all disappeared.
1. venomous
2. non-venomous
3. and Satan (if we must)
Again, I'd like some input from our local YECs if I can.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Blue Jay, posted 03-06-2008 11:20 PM | | Blue Jay has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 80 by randman, posted 03-07-2008 12:20 AM | | Taz has replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 81 of 173 (459419)
03-07-2008 1:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 80 by randman
03-07-2008 12:20 AM
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Re: List o' mammals
randman writes: Do you think God is limited by our understanding of science?
You have reading comprehension problem?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by randman, posted 03-07-2008 12:20 AM | | randman has not replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 86 of 173 (459633)
03-09-2008 12:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 85 by graft2vine
03-08-2008 11:47 PM
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graft2vine writes: Total of 8,000 genera, so an estimate of 16,000 individuals were on board.
Oh, nice, Noah and his family cared for 16,000 animal in a span of a whole year. Nice to know a dozen or so people could perform all those tasks.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by graft2vine, posted 03-08-2008 11:47 PM | | graft2vine has not replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 88 of 173 (459770)
03-09-2008 7:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by Percy
03-09-2008 8:42 AM
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Percy writes: Naturally its much worse than that. Anyone who has ever worked on a small family farm knows how long it really takes to feed just the hens, the pigs, the horses, and while cows and goats just graze, this wouldn't have been an option on the ark. And anyone who has ever raised hamsters and gerbils knows how long it really takes to service the cage, even the modern ones with all the accoutrements. Then there's all the time that has to spent going back and forth to the stores for more food and to the deck to dump more waste. There's just no way.
I'm particularly interested in this bit...
quote:
Excretory requirements
It is doubtful whether the humans had to clean the cages every morning. Possibly they had sloped floors or slatted cages, where the manure could fall away from the animals and be flushed away (plenty of water around!) or destroyed by vermicomposting (composting by worms) which would also provide earthworms as a food source. Very deep bedding can sometimes last for a year without needing a change. Absorbent material (e.g. sawdust, softwood wood shavings and especially peat moss) would reduce the moisture content and hence the odour.
Emphasis mine. How would you like living on top of layers and layers of animal feces for a year?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by Percy, posted 03-09-2008 8:42 AM | | Percy has not replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 96 of 173 (459949)
03-11-2008 10:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 95 by randman
03-11-2008 2:44 AM
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randman writes: Why assume in a story with God as an active agent (He closed the door for example) that we need some sort of natural evidence of animal behaviour?
Well, the whole point of the young earth creationist movement is that the whole thing is suppose to be "scientifically sound" with no supernatural elements so it could be accepted in the science classroom. By citing "godditit", you're effectively undermining the YEC's purpose.
Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by randman, posted 03-11-2008 2:44 AM | | randman has replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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graft2vine writes: YEC's are just defending their view of the Bible and see evolution as a threat to it. You can't believe the Bible without accepting the supernatural elements.
Actually, some YECs here have tried to pass the flood off as scientific and therefore should be taught in the classroom. The link to that article you linked to proves this.
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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graft2vine writes: But I don't think I see them distancing themselves from the supernatural.
What are you talking about? Some YECs have made a career coming up with bullshit theories like the hydroplate theory to try to explain the flood in a purely naturalistic way.
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 118 of 173 (460136)
03-12-2008 10:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 117 by Blue Jay
03-12-2008 9:51 PM
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Re: Creeping Things
Bluejay writes: Also note that God seems to believe in the above-quoted chapter of Leviticus that insects have four legs, when, in fact, they have six (no exceptions).
A side note, I'm having trouble contemplating this apparently minor but also significant error in Genesis. Any bonehead could just pick up an ant or grasshopper or anything other creepy crawly thing and see that it has more than 4 legs. Even if you lump arachnids, insects, and all other arthropods into one "creeping kind", you'd still end up with stuff that have more than 4 legs. Who in the world would make an error like this?
Thou shalt accept Prometheus as thy savior for HE is the true light of Humanity and the World.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by Blue Jay, posted 03-12-2008 9:51 PM | | Blue Jay has not replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Re: Creeping Things
FliesOnly writes: elephants brought their years supply of food with them.
Last year, my friend and I decided to climb up to the continental divide in Colorado Rockies by ourselves. Unlike most people who drive up near that point and then leave their car, we started out at the bottom of the Rockies. It took us a week to get up there and another week to get down. We had to carry all our supplies and whatnot for 2 weeks on our backs. Trust me. Just 2 weeks worth of food for 2 people (and we dehydrated everything) is a full load to carry, let alone a whole year's supply. Even then, we didn't have enough food with us. We ended up having to fish for some of our meals.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by FliesOnly, posted 03-13-2008 3:34 PM | | FliesOnly has not replied |
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3313 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: 07-18-2006
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Message 173 of 173 (461260)
03-23-2008 10:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 171 by Beretta
03-23-2008 5:40 AM
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Re: What?
Beretta writes: Sorry to disappoint True Believer but I haven't studied the topic and am content to leave it to all of you to argue about this. I would rather hear how random mutation and natural selection could possibly be as creative as it is credited with being.Now that would be a story that would make Noah pale in comparison.
Are you saying that a big pile of shit makes a smaller pile of shit look tasty?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 171 by Beretta, posted 03-23-2008 5:40 AM | | Beretta has not replied |
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