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Author Topic:   Guilty feelings.
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1 of 46 (462486)
04-04-2008 5:18 AM


Most people feel guilt when they have done something 'bad' (a fuzzy definition I know).
What is 'guilt'? Is it a form of cognitive self flagellation or from an external source telling us something?
Edited by Larni, : Stupid spelling mistakes.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Stile, posted 04-04-2008 10:21 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 46 (462506)
04-04-2008 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Shield
04-04-2008 8:49 AM


I introduced an external source because many people do see guilt as stemming from a god.
If a guilty conscience is from a god your point is very well taken. But if guilt is not from a god what is it for?

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 Message 2 by Shield, posted 04-04-2008 8:49 AM Shield has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 12:33 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 5 of 46 (462508)
04-04-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Stile
04-04-2008 10:21 AM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Stile writes:
It doesn't release any endorphines or block receptors or something like that?
I reckon you you need to recognise the 'badness' of the behaviour before you conclude that you have done something wrong. I would say this is cognitive rather than psysical.
When one 'feels' guilt I would assert it is pure rumination of past deads rather than a physical reaction.
Good catch on guitly! D'oh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Stile, posted 04-04-2008 10:21 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 12:21 PM Larni has replied
 Message 10 by Stile, posted 04-04-2008 1:33 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 35 by Son Goku, posted 04-07-2008 10:30 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 8 of 46 (462514)
04-04-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 12:21 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
molbiogirl writes:
Cognitive is physical.
Explain how.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 12:21 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 2:37 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 46 (462515)
04-04-2008 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Jack
04-04-2008 12:33 PM


Mr Jack writes:
negative reinforcement
So you do something wrong and what positive stimulus gets removed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 12:33 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 1:55 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 14 of 46 (462524)
04-04-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 2:37 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
As I said: explain how, please.
Unless you are agueing that you need a physical substrate for cognition; in which case you are right.
But if you mean physical in as much as anxiety is expressed in a physical reaction then I would again ask you to justify your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 2:37 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 3:02 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 15 of 46 (462525)
04-04-2008 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Jack
04-04-2008 1:58 PM


Mr Jack writes:
as you can relieve guilt by making things right
Hmm. Don't think I can argue with that.
However, isn't this a reaction to a previous expression of guilt?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 1:58 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dr Jack, posted 04-06-2008 3:10 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 17 of 46 (462528)
04-04-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 3:02 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
You misunderstand.
I know that anxiety is a physical reaction followed by cognition.
Guilt however is the issue here.
Again can you substantiate that guilt is as physical reation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 3:02 PM molbiogirl has replied

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 Message 18 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 3:40 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 19 of 46 (462532)
04-04-2008 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 3:40 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
I see this issue here:
You are of course correct that pretty much any negative emotion is going to involve the paralimbic system. But then to be fair any cognition or emotion is going to have to involve the brain: without the brain there is nothing.
My point about the physical reaction vs a cognitive reation is that (given that all cognition requires the brain- a physical entity) cognition is a mental process (occuring of course in the brain - a physical structure) where as anxiety is a psysical process (hormonal in this case).
I guess I could be charged with pedantry here but I think that cognitive and physical are different.
By the way, can I call you when I have my next essay? You ninja lit rev skills are strong!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 3:40 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 7:39 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 21 of 46 (462544)
04-04-2008 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 7:39 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
molbiogirl writes:
Larni, the structures of the brain don't just light up "all by themselves".
I know this.
Cognition cannot take place without a brain in which it can take place in.
As this is true for all thought we can cancel this physical aspect out.
Compare thinking of cows with thinking anxious thoughts:
With thinking of cows there is no physiological reaction beyond that which takes place in the brain for thought to occur.
Thinking of having a fight provokes a visceral reaction mediated by adrenaline.
I'm sorry if spending yet another half hour doing research is a pain for you.
I meant what I said as compliment. I'm sorry it appears not to have been taken as such.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 7:39 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 9:21 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 23 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 9:57 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 24 of 46 (462565)
04-05-2008 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 9:57 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Thats exactly what I mean.
These however are physiological reactions that are associated with anxiety.
Guilt is different.
When you feels guilt does: Nervousness, blinking eyes, sweating, heavier breathing, higher heart rate, shaking, voice breaks when talking, cannot sit still, hands tremble, lips quiver......Feeling nauseous, tired and unable to get on with the day........Sweating, heavier breathing, perhaps blushing......happen to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 9:57 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by molbiogirl, posted 04-05-2008 12:30 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 26 of 46 (462628)
04-06-2008 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by molbiogirl
04-05-2008 12:30 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Index of /
I could find nothing in this refering to guilt having physiological symptoms. Did you even read it?
molbiogirl writes:
Just to clarify, the physical "symptoms" of guilt are reported in the literature. As are those for anxiety/embarrassment/shame.
Anxiety and shame are not guilt.
Tangeny, J.P. (1996)CONCEPTUAL AND METHODOLOGICAL ISSUES IN THE ASSESSMENT OF SHAME AND GUILT. Behav. Res. Ther. Vol. 34, No. 9, pp. 741-755
So far you have shown only the psysiological symptoms anxiety.
molbiogirl writes:
Feelings of guilt may be related to projections to the limbic area.
Yes. Again I say: I KNOW THIS.
Forget the brain. Every act of cognition has a correlates within the brain. This is a given.
Guilt does not have the same resultant physilogical reactions as anxiety; guilt does not trigger facial distortion as does disgust.
molbiogirl writes:
The Maier subscale isolates core emotional symptoms of depression (depressed mood, guilt, retardation, agitation, anxiety), while the HAMD17 total score assesses both psychological and physical symptoms.
GUILT IS NOT DEPRESSION!
molbiogirl writes:
Role of Physical Symptoms in Diagnosis of Depression in the Elderly, Geriatrics and Aging, Volume 5, Number 8, October 2002, Pages 18-21.
My bold.
Exactly what physical symptoms do you think they mean when they refer to depression here? Cerebral blood flow? Or motor retardation (for example)?
Anyway GUILT IS NOT DEPRESSION!
Symptoms of depression were expected to correlate positively with shame, but not with guilt.
Webb, M et al (2007) Shame, guilt, symptoms of depression, and reported history of psychological maltreatment. Child Abuse & Neglect Volume 31, Issues 11-12, November-December 2007, Pages 1143-1153

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by molbiogirl, posted 04-05-2008 12:30 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by molbiogirl, posted 04-06-2008 2:16 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 29 of 46 (462649)
04-06-2008 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by molbiogirl
04-06-2008 2:16 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
molbiogirl writes:
This can lead to feelings of guilt and shame. The psychological distress engendered by these feelings may be expiated through physical pain or suffering [64, 65]. The location of the pain in the abdomen, pelvis, or genitourinary area is logical to the psyche because this area represents the "bad" or offending part of the body that is to be punished.
You honestly think these are symptoms of guilt? You don't think this is somatization?
molbiogirl writes:
Just to clarify, the physical "symptoms" of guilt are reported in the literature.
Yet you are yet to present them.
molbiogirl writes:
I thought it important to include that study as it pinpoints the neurotransmitters that produce the pain.
The function of a neurotransmitter is not a symptom.
That's like saying a symptom of having a cold is a virus.
molbiogirl writes:
Guilt is a part of depression
But you would agree that you can experience guilt sans depression and vis versa?
molbiogirl writes:
I didn't write that. Stahl et al did.
I don't understand. Why is this disctinction relevent?
molbiogirl writes:
Psychomotor retardation or agitation may be linked to problems in the various motor projections, while vegetative symptoms such as changes in appetite or weight, lack of pleasure and sleep abnormalities may relate to dysfunction of innervation of the hypothalamus and the sleep centres.
Again with the depression. Irrelevent.
Wright, F., O'Leary, J., Balkin, J., Shame, Guilt, Narcissism, and Depression: Correlates and Sex Differences, Psychoanal. Psychol., 6:217-230.
Now your talking! 19 year old psychoanalytic 'research'.
molbiogirl writes:
In conclusion, we have shown profound dysregulation of IL-6 secretion in patients with diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder ... Correlations between daily mean log-transformed plasma IL-6 levels and VAS scores for concentration (A), guilt (B), sadness (C), self-esteem (D), suicidal thoughts (E), and tiredness (F) in five MDD patients and matched controls. Correlations of IL-6 with guilt, self-esteem, and suicidal thoughts remained significant after Bonferroni correction.
Why do you keep harping on about depression?
When you said cognitive is physical I assume you meant that guilt has physical symptoms.
molbiogirl writes:
Please note that although the physiological symptoms of guilt are less prominent than those of fear, they do exist!
You have still not presented them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by molbiogirl, posted 04-06-2008 2:16 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by molbiogirl, posted 04-06-2008 5:06 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 33 by molbiogirl, posted 04-06-2008 7:23 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 30 of 46 (462650)
04-06-2008 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dr Jack
04-06-2008 3:10 PM


Mr Jack writes:
Yes. Why do you think that matters?
Good point: I suppose it does tell us that a) guilt is aversive and b) by avoiding guilt we avoid the aversive state.
So what makes guilt so aversive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dr Jack, posted 04-06-2008 3:10 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dr Jack, posted 04-06-2008 4:19 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 34 of 46 (462683)
04-07-2008 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by molbiogirl
04-06-2008 7:23 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
molbiogirl writes:
Physiological symptoms out the wazoo.
Please present them as my search fu is obviously lacking. But please don't just say something along the lines of:
"paper A says there are physiological reactions"
If paper a does say so you should be able to quote it without reference to anxiety or depression or anything that is not guilt
If it's just my search fu that's lacking I'll be happy to concede the point.
ABE: I'll get back to you on the Facets of Emotion, Klaus R. Scherer, no time
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by molbiogirl, posted 04-06-2008 7:23 PM molbiogirl has not replied

  
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