How Old is the Earth ?

What do you want to know about cosmology TC?

How strong is your math background?If your comfortable with calculus I really recomend this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201547309/qid=1013807778/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_67_1/002-5138200-2718434It was one of the texts I used at Uni and is very good as a undergrad level intro to everything from planetary motion to the black holes....

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Originally posted by zimzam:
Has anyone entertained the idea that if God created Adam as an adult why couldnt he create the earth as a million years old?

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Unfortunately this lets in God the deciever from Descartes meditations...From:
http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/d/descarte.htm#Religion,%20Science%20and%20Scepticism"Taking his doubts further, Descartes initially speculates that God is deceiving him about all of the things that he believes or perceives. This would happen if God were actively putting ideas into my head that, prima facie and in all cases, seemed to have some other source. (The notion of deception, as Descartes is using it here is more limited that that which he employs from Meditation 4 onwards. Please see Meditation 4 for our discussion of commissive and omisive deceptions.) Descartes includes primary objects in this hypothetical deception - thus, God deceives me even about the ideal objects of mathematics. Descartes writes:Suggesting that God is a deceiver causes him problems, though, because according to traditional Christian theology, infinite goodness is one of God's necessary attributes. Goodness and deception seem opposed. If backed into a corner, some might deny God's existence rather than admit that he is the cause of deception. And yet, denying God, Descartes argues, could only make him more vulnerable to deception."I think that if you think hard about it you will see the problem of God creating a universe with apparent age, Such a God would be a deciever and therefore Descartes reasons NOT the christian God....

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Originally posted by zimzam:
God didn't create the earth in its infancy but rather in its maturity. Today when we attempt to measure the age of the earth we come to the conclusion that it is millions of years old. The universe seems to be expanding and using mathematical equations we can determine its speed of expansion etc and come to a logical and accurate conclusion regarding its age. This does not mean that the earth is not 6,000 calendar days old.

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My point is that there is no intent to deceive on Gods part. When you have the power of creation you can do anything you want. The earth may have only taken a day to create but it was created as mature and old in years.

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If he could do as he wished he could have made a non expanding universe and provided evidence of a young earth the fact that the evidence is for an old universe shows that either God is a practical joker with a pre teen sense of humour("You believed the evidence insttead of this book, LOL, ZAP....") or that the universe is old....He`s omnicogniscient for... well his sake he could certainly figure out that it would be to confusing for us poor mortals if all the evidence pointed to an old universe....

If God created a universe with an apparent age of billions of years then his creation decieves us into a false belief, as God is infinitely good he cannot decieve us (or he would not be infinitely good but instead a liar) therefore if an infinitely good God created the universe it would have ample evidence of the date of that creation.Thus either:a)God is NOT infinitely good and decieves us....Or:b)The universe has an age equivalent to its observed age.....You must remember that not only is the apparent age due to distant starlight, expanding universe, radiometric isotope decay, stellar generations etc but also the fossil record which if created to give an aged look to the universe would be an act of direct deception.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zimzam:
[B]To say that God can create whatever he chooses but not a mature earth is foolishness.[B][/QUOTE]The point is that while your God would be capable of creating a universe with apparent age this would be in effect fabricating evidence that decieves, your infinitely good God is morally precluded from deception by virtue of his goodness and therefore your God could NOT have produced a universe with apparent age...You are a policeman yes? You are perfectly able to pull out your gun and shoot a random passer by, you presumeably wouldn`t because you have a moral sense that murder is wrong. Here you are capable of performing the action but are morally prohibited from doing so this is directly analogous to the case of an omnipotent and ifinitely good creator who is morally prohibited from deception.....

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Originally posted by zimzam:
Let me ask you this. When did God ever tell us how old the earth is? He only tells us that he created it in 6 days and that he created it for us. We have created this debate over its age thus completely missing the point.

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Ok in summary:Assuming God exists....1)Either the biblical account of creation ex nihilo X,000 (where X is of the close order of 10) years ago is a)correct or b)it isn`t....2)Either the biblical God is a) infinitely (or perfectly) good or b) isn`t...2)a)Precludes 1)a) in that an infinitely (or perfectly) good God would be morally prohibited from an act that would lead to a deception....2)a)Can be taken to not prohibit 1)b) in that a God that created a universe a time of the close order of 10,000,000,000 years ago which contains evidence of that age has not commited an act of deception....(i)However it could also be argued that such an infinitely good God would remove from circulation any accounts of creation that were false thus prohibiting 1)b)....(ii)2)b)Prohibits no courses of action but relies on God not being of perfect moral character which itself contradicts popular christian belief....(iii)Thus either (i) or (ii) is right:If (i) God is the perfectly good creator of a 10,000,000,000 year old universe.Or (ii) is right In which case as the biblical account is still around means God must be as described in 2)b) which gives case (iii)(iii) God is described by 2)b) a less than perfect (morally) deity who can willfully of by lack of forethought decieve contrary to popular christian belief.....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 02-20-2002]

Which is all well and good Zim but you have yet to address the fact that a perfectly good deity would be precluded from an act of deception. Setting up a universe which *looked* 10`s of billions of years old while only being of age < 10,000 years would be such an act of deception.Please address this issue........

Theo I posted this for Zimzam a while ago....The point under debate was that if God made a universe with apparent age he was a deciever (in the sense used by Descartes in his mediations) and therefore not the perfectly good God of christian theology...Ok in summary:

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Assuming God exists....

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1)Either the biblical account of creation ex nihilo X,000 (where X is of the close order of 10) years ago is a)correct or b)it isn`t....

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2)Either the biblical God is a) infinitely (or perfectly) good or b) isn`t...

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2)a)Precludes 1)a) in that an infinitely (or perfectly) good God would be morally prohibited from an act that would lead to a deception....

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2)a)Can be taken to not prohibit 1)b) in that a God that created a universe a time of the close order of 10,000,000,000 years ago which contains evidence of that age has not commited an act of deception....(i)

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However it could also be argued that such an infinitely good God would remove from circulation any accounts of creation that were false thus prohibiting 1)b)....(ii)

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2)b)Prohibits no courses of action but relies on God not being of perfect moral character which itself contradicts popular christian belief....(iii)

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Thus either (i) or (ii) is right:

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If (i) God is the perfectly good creator of a 10,000,000,000 year old universe.

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Or (ii) is right In which case as the biblical account is still around means God must be as described in 2)b) which gives case (iii)

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(iii) God is described by 2)b) a less than perfect (morally) deity who can willfully of by lack of forethought decieve contrary to popular christian belief.....Comments Theo?

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Originally posted by Quetzal:
I am quite willing to discuss the three current primary theories concerning abiogenesis. I normally don't like getting in to those discussions on an evo-cre forum - besides the fact that it has nothing to do with evolution - for the simple reason that there is a huge volume of organic chemistry and biology that most posters simply don't have. I can discuss both the pros and cons of each hypothesis, but it requires a great deal of background to even understand why a given hypothesis is more or less likely. Background that is almost impossible to either simplify or digest on a necessarily short post in a debate forum. Still, if you insist, we can start a new thread on the topic. Feel free - but please research the topic in advance so we have some basis for discussion.

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I for one think this would be interesting reading if you want to post this info Quetzal.......

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
I could second that emotion...

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Um TC you second motions not emotions....(though given the electronic nature of this debate a good case could be made for e-motion)