Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8897 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-19-2019 3:56 AM
135 online now:
CosmicChimp, Tangle (2 members, 133 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,449 Year: 3,486/19,786 Month: 481/1,087 Week: 71/212 Day: 1/31 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
Author Topic:   Irreducible Complexity
HellboundGreaser
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 59 (354386)
10-05-2006 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by RAZD
10-04-2006 6:51 PM


Re: irreducible complexity
Thanks for the welcome. Heh I didnt notice how old this thread is. My whole thake on "ID" is that it's a reworking of standard "creationism". And their whole goal is to make "evangelical" Christianity the law of the land.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 10-04-2006 6:51 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by RAZD, posted 10-05-2006 7:53 PM HellboundGreaser has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 47 of 59 (354570)
10-05-2006 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by HellboundGreaser
10-05-2006 10:32 AM


both sides now.
You know that, I know that, Phillip Johnson knows that ...

... the IDologists want to give the world of science a wedgie.

Personally I think both sides of the design controversy need to be discussed: see Silly Design Institute: Let's discuss BOTH sides of the Design Controversy...

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by HellboundGreaser, posted 10-05-2006 10:32 AM HellboundGreaser has not yet responded

gaznewt
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 59 (366574)
11-28-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by God is Love
11-28-2001 11:05 PM


God is Love : You are a simpleton with access to a keyboard.

Well done.


Rendered Invisible due to OFF TOPIC and useless nature. - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. Please read the forum guidelines.
AdminPD

Edited by gaznewt, : I had to put "God is Love:" at the start so people knew who I was replying to

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning - If you must read, use the peek button.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by God is Love, posted 11-28-2001 11:05 PM God is Love has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by AdminModulous, posted 11-28-2006 6:19 PM gaznewt has not yet responded
 Message 50 by RAZD, posted 11-28-2006 6:22 PM gaznewt has not yet responded

AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 49 of 59 (366576)
11-28-2006 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by gaznewt
11-28-2006 6:05 PM


You are not being suspended
And the warning won't be harshly administered.

Welcome to EvC.

If you choose to stay here, then I hope you get as much out of it as I have. If you want to reply to a member in the future, please do so in a way that advances the debate. Also, I'd like to remind you to scan the Forum Rules a little more closely than you had previously. Particular attention should be paid to rule number 10. The 'ad hominem' rule, so to speak.

The reason that I am giving clemency is two fold. On the one hand, you are new around here, and may not be aware of the tone of discussion we like to at least try and foster. On the other hand, you may have failed to notice that the person you are replying to typed their message almost precisely 5 years ago and it was that person's last venture to EvC (at least to post).

Take care, and enjoy our fora.

Please - do not reply to this message. I get grumpy when that happens. We have a thread dedicated to discussing moderator actions, the link to it is in my signature (the blue box underneath my message).


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Thread Style Guides for EvC and Thread Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by gaznewt, posted 11-28-2006 6:05 PM gaznewt has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 50 of 59 (366578)
11-28-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by gaznewt
11-28-2006 6:05 PM


welcome to the fray gaznewt.

{comment edited by admins}

Edited by gaznewt, 11-28-2006 06:06 PM: I had to put "God is Love:" at the start so people knew who I was replying to

That is not a reply, it is an ad hominem attack on the messenger - a logical fallacy - and says nothing about the message. This is against forum guidelines, and doesn't add anything to the debate.

Nor does it discuss the topic of the thread - Irreducible Complexity (although there is not much to discuss about a concept that doesn't have any real value, predictive or explanatory)

I agree with AdminPD Message 2

quote:
Thank you for proposing a new topic and adding to our diversity. Since you are new to EvC, I suggest that you carefully read the Forum Guidelines and familiarize yourself with the functions of EvC by using the Practice Makes Perfect Forum or posting in existing threads.

Enjoy.


ps type [qs]quote boxes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quote boxes are easy

Edited by RAZD, : deleted comment edited by admins


Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by gaznewt, posted 11-28-2006 6:05 PM gaznewt has not yet responded

waqasf 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 51 of 59 (462923)
04-10-2008 12:33 PM


Spam deleted.

Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.


theTroll
Junior Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 2
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Joined: 07-02-2009


Message 52 of 59 (513928)
07-02-2009 2:16 PM


IC
So far all of they holy grails of ID have been shown that they could evolve.

First there was the flagella, and it was shown to be just rearranged parts that had other functions in the cell.

The eye was shown how it could evolve from just light receptive cells into an eye.

Even the Blood clotting system was shown that it could evolve and that the intermediate steps would have a positive effect on the organism.

The IC folks have not yet shown a single part that could not be broken down into useful parts.

As for matter from energy. All you have to do is a little math. E = MC^2. Now we the math. M = E/C^2. Tada, matter from energy.

theTroll


Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by lyx2no, posted 07-02-2009 2:31 PM theTroll has responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2789 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 53 of 59 (513931)
07-02-2009 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by theTroll
07-02-2009 2:16 PM


E=mc2
As for matter from energy. All you have to do is a little math. E = MC^2. Now we the math. M = E/C^2. Tada, matter from energy.
E=mc2 is a formula of equivalence not conversion. It does not imply that energy can be turned into matter.

Are you a troll or what?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by theTroll, posted 07-02-2009 2:16 PM theTroll has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Rahvin, posted 07-02-2009 3:44 PM lyx2no has responded
 Message 57 by theTroll, posted 07-02-2009 5:02 PM lyx2no has responded

Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1260 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 54 of 59 (513940)
07-02-2009 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by lyx2no
07-02-2009 2:31 PM


Re: E=mc2
E=mc2 is a formula of equivalence not conversion. It does not imply that energy can be turned into matter.

Are you a troll or what?

That's actually incorrect. Matter can be and is formed from energy,asmatter/antimatter particle pairs:

quote:
In nuclear physics, this occurs when a high-energy photon interacts in the vicinity of a nucleus, allowing the production of an electron and a positron pair without violating conservation of momentum. Since the momentum of the initial photon must be absorbed by something, pair production cannot occur in empty space out of a single photon; the nucleus (or another photon) is needed to conserve both momentum and energy (consider the time reversal of Electron-positron annihilation).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by lyx2no, posted 07-02-2009 2:31 PM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by lyx2no, posted 07-02-2009 4:10 PM Rahvin has not yet responded
 Message 56 by cavediver, posted 07-02-2009 4:30 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2789 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 55 of 59 (513945)
07-02-2009 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Rahvin
07-02-2009 3:44 PM


Re: E=mc2
It was my understanding that virtual particles pairs could become actual particles by the absorption of the photos energy. Matter isn't created but merely sustained if that's any kind of difference (???). I will investigate, but if there's anyone who wants to comment on this I'd love to hear it.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Rahvin, posted 07-02-2009 3:44 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

cavediver
Member (Idle past 1717 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 56 of 59 (513948)
07-02-2009 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Rahvin
07-02-2009 3:44 PM


Re: E=mc2
lyx2no writes:

E=mc2 is a formula of equivalence not conversion. It does not imply that energy can be turned into matter.

Rahvin writes:

That's actually incorrect. Matter can be and is formed from energy,asmatter/antimatter particle pairs:

Sorry, Rhavin, lyx2no is correct. E=mc2 does not IMPLY that energy can be turned into matter. And furthermore, you cannot create matter out of energy - in the same way you cannot create ripples out of energy. For ripples, you need water. Admittedly, you would need to ADD energy to a flat pond to create the ripples on the pond. To create an electron/positron pair, you need an electron/positron (Dirac) field, and then you need to add some energy.

And finally, for lyx2no as well, the m in E=mc2 IS NOT MATTER. It is MASS. And there is nothing matter-like about mass. It is an attribute of both matter AND energy.

Hope this helps :)

ABE: Sorry, just noticed how OT this is. Happy to continue in another thread if desired...

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Rahvin, posted 07-02-2009 3:44 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

theTroll
Junior Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 2
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Joined: 07-02-2009


Message 57 of 59 (513955)
07-02-2009 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by lyx2no
07-02-2009 2:31 PM


Re: E=mc2
Have to disagree here. Yes you get pairs, but that does not mean matter has not been created.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970724a.html

Also in matter/antimatter interactions there is a tendency for matter to come out just a little bit ahead. That is the the reason we exist.

And no, I am not "a troll", I am theTroll, big difference.
theTroll


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by lyx2no, posted 07-02-2009 2:31 PM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by lyx2no, posted 07-02-2009 6:29 PM theTroll has not yet responded

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2789 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 58 of 59 (513957)
07-02-2009 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by theTroll
07-02-2009 5:02 PM


Re: E=mc2
Yes you get pairs, but that does not mean matter has not been created.
It's not the issue of pairs that is of concern. The bit in your reference that needs to be considered is this:

This is partly because in a technical sense, you cannot just create matter out of energy: there are various 'conservation laws' of electric charges, the number of leptons (electron-like particles) etc., which means that you can only create matter / anti-matter pairs out of energy.

The tecnical bit it that energy is a description of how much work can be performed, not a substance that can be converted into some other kind of substance.

I don't know why I thought you might have been a troll. It was one of those tingling intangibles. I'm glad it was a false positive on the troll-dar. Welcome to the fray, by the way.

cavediver writes:

Hope this helps

As always. I probably should have said something myself about m being mass, but I get in enough trouble criticizing expressed error to dissuade me from criticizing potential error.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by theTroll, posted 07-02-2009 5:02 PM theTroll has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3879
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 59 of 59 (513968)
07-02-2009 9:29 PM


Dead topic revived and then shot way off-topic
Offhand, it looks like this topic was in rather bad shape even before the current topic abandonment.

Going to close, probably in about 15 minutes.

Perhaps someone would like to take the off-topic material to a new topic?

Adminnemooseus


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report Technical Problems Here: No. 1
Report Discussion Problems Here: No. 2
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, Assistance w/ Forum Formatting, Proposed New (Great Debate) Topics, Official Invitations to Online Chat@EvC

Admin writes:

It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source


  
Prev123
4
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019