Irreducible Complexity

Thanks for the welcome. Heh I didnt notice how old this thread is. My whole thake on "ID" is that it's a reworking of standard "creationism". And their whole goal is to make "evangelical" Christianity the law of the land.

You know that, I know that, Phillip Johnson knows that ...

... the IDologists want to give the world of science a wedgie.

Personally I think both sides of the design controversy need to be discussed: see Silly Design Institute: Let's discuss BOTH sides of the Design Controversy...

Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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Rendered Invisible due to OFF TOPIC and useless nature. - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. Please read the forum guidelines. AdminPD

Edited by gaznewt, : I had to put "God is Love:" at the start so people knew who I was replying to

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning - If you must read, use the peek button.

And the warning won't be harshly administered.

Welcome to EvC.

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welcome to the fray gaznewt.

{comment edited by admins} Edited by gaznewt, 11-28-2006 06:06 PM: I had to put "God is Love:" at the start so people knew who I was replying to

That is not a reply, it is an ad hominem attack on the messenger - a logical fallacy - and says nothing about the message. This is against forum guidelines, and doesn't add anything to the debate.

Nor does it discuss the topic of the thread - Irreducible Complexity (although there is not much to discuss about a concept that doesn't have any real value, predictive or explanatory)

I agree with AdminPD Message 2

quote:

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Thank you for proposing a new topic and adding to our diversity. Since you are new to EvC, I suggest that you carefully read the Forum Guidelines and familiarize yourself with the functions of EvC by using the Practice Makes Perfect Forum or posting in existing threads.

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Enjoy.

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ps type [qs]quote boxes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:

quote boxes are easy

Edited by RAZD, : deleted comment edited by admins

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Spam deleted.

Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.

So far all of they holy grails of ID have been shown that they could evolve.

First there was the flagella, and it was shown to be just rearranged parts that had other functions in the cell.

The eye was shown how it could evolve from just light receptive cells into an eye.

Even the Blood clotting system was shown that it could evolve and that the intermediate steps would have a positive effect on the organism.

The IC folks have not yet shown a single part that could not be broken down into useful parts.

As for matter from energy. All you have to do is a little math. E = MC^2. Now we the math. M = E/C^2. Tada, matter from energy.

theTroll

As for matter from energy. All you have to do is a little math. E = MC^2. Now we the math. M = E/C^2. Tada, matter from energy.

E=mc² is a formula of equivalence not conversion. It does not imply that energy can be turned into matter.

Are you a troll or what?

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

E=mc2 is a formula of equivalence not conversion. It does not imply that energy can be turned into matter. Are you a troll or what?

That's actually incorrect. Matter can be and is formed from energy,asmatter/antimatter particle pairs:

quote:

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In nuclear physics, this occurs when a high-energy photon interacts in the vicinity of a nucleus, allowing the production of an electron and a positron pair without violating conservation of momentum. Since the momentum of the initial photon must be absorbed by something, pair production cannot occur in empty space out of a single photon; the nucleus (or another photon) is needed to conserve both momentum and energy (consider the time reversal of Electron-positron annihilation).

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It was my understanding that virtual particles pairs could become actual particles by the absorption of the photos energy. Matter isn't created but merely sustained — if that's any kind of difference (???). I will investigate, but if there's anyone who wants to comment on this I'd love to hear it.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

lyx2no writes: E=mc2 is a formula of equivalence not conversion. It does not imply that energy can be turned into matter.

Rahvin writes: That's actually incorrect. Matter can be and is formed from energy,asmatter/antimatter particle pairs:

Sorry, Rhavin, lyx2no is correct. E=mc² does not IMPLY that energy can be turned into matter. And furthermore, you cannot create matter out of energy - in the same way you cannot create ripples out of energy. For ripples, you need water. Admittedly, you would need to ADD energy to a flat pond to create the ripples on the pond. To create an electron/positron pair, you need an electron/positron (Dirac) field, and then you need to add some energy.

And finally, for lyx2no as well, the m in E=mc² IS NOT MATTER. It is MASS. And there is nothing matter-like about mass. It is an attribute of both matter AND energy.

Hope this helps :)

ABE: Sorry, just noticed how OT this is. Happy to continue in another thread if desired...

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

Have to disagree here. Yes you get pairs, but that does not mean matter has not been created.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970724a.html

Also in matter/antimatter interactions there is a tendency for matter to come out just a little bit ahead. That is the the reason we exist.

And no, I am not "a troll", I am theTroll, big difference.
theTroll

Yes you get pairs, but that does not mean matter has not been created.

It's not the issue of pairs that is of concern. The bit in your reference that needs to be considered is this:

This is partly because in a technical sense, you cannot just create matter out of energy: there are various 'conservation laws' of electric charges, the number of leptons (electron-like particles) etc., which means that you can only create matter / anti-matter pairs out of energy.

The tecnical bit it that energy is a description of how much work can be performed, not a substance that can be converted into some other kind of substance.

I don't know why I thought you might have been a troll. It was one of those tingling intangibles. I'm glad it was a false positive on the troll-dar. Welcome to the fray, by the way.

cavediver writes: Hope this helps

As always. I probably should have said something myself about m being mass, but I get in enough trouble criticizing expressed error to dissuade me from criticizing potential error.

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Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
— Thomas Jefferson

Offhand, it looks like this topic was in rather bad shape even before the current topic abandonment.

Going to close, probably in about 15 minutes.

Perhaps someone would like to take the off-topic material to a new topic?

Adminnemooseus

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Admin writes: It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon. There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot. Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source