Tesla and Superweapons.

"Philedelphia"? You must be one of those Englenders. That was one fine movie! Haven't seen it in 20 years, maybe I'll put it on my Netflix list. I assume your diminishment of ardor was related to the science and not the movie itself?--Percy

I don't know why Son Goku hasn't replied yet, maybe because you asked a question he already answered: My view of this thread is that it is actually exploring the conspiratorial mind that sees secrets everywhere, in this case secret government research efforts developing theoretical and technological knowledge that the public, including all scientists not directly associated with these projects, is unaware of.My answers to Son Goku's questions:

• Are there superweapons?
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  No.
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• Are they plausible in the first place?
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  No.
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• Is there secret scientific knowledge?
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  Yes, of course. The Manhattan project is an example. The Stealth bomber is another. But the more people in the know and the more time that goes by, the harder it is to keep it secret. In other words, there is no such thing as large-scale long-term secret scientific knowledge.
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• What is the truth in Tesla conspiracies?
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  They exist only in the minds of conspiracy theorists.

--Percy

I don't think anyone seriously questions the reality of conspiracies. What is questioned is the possibility of large-scale multi-generational conspiracies.It takes no special credulousness to accept the possibility that Tesla may have discovered something about electromagnetic phenomena that was suppressed at the time and subsequently lost and never rediscovered. For instance, perhaps journals at the time conspired to refuse to print his paper, and now the last remaining copy lies in a trunk in an attic in an abandoned farmhouse on the outskirts of Prague. Somehow or other, subsequent generations of scientists have failed to rediscover this phenomenon. This isn't the kind of thing I tend to believe without evidence, but it is at least somewhat within the realm of possibility.But it does take a special kind of credulousness to accept the possibility that not only was Tesla's discovery purposefully suppressed at the time, but the conspiracy to suppress this knowledge continued for over a century and survives to this day. Somewhere on the planet there's a cabal of conspiratories sitting on valuable knowledge discovered by Tesla that they will not reveal. Whatever the motivations of the original conspiratories, now long dead, additional conspirators were recruited from each generation to perpetuate the suppression of knowledge, each buying into the reasons for keeping the knowledge secret, and none ever breaking the code of silence by sending the paper to Nature or the New York Times.This is the kind of conspiracy that seems extremely unlikely.--Percy

There are two parts of your scenario that seem very unlikely to me:

• Governments keeping secrets of this magnitude for decades.
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• A Tesla "scalar weapon" that can cause "earthquakes and other disasters from remote locations."

The rest seems fine.--Percy

Really? Darn! I guess I'll have to stop using "seems unlikely" as a synonym for established fact. Thanks for the tip!From your Message 29: I'm not sure if Taz would agree, but it might be more that he was noting that the connection between evidence and your views is not very often apparent to others. Since you often argue forcefully for views with little apparent evidence, this comes across as not being particularly interested in evidence, which is pretty similar to the anti-science types.Perpetual motion machine advocates don't think they're anti-science, either, but if you read their writings (for example, see Alan Cresswell's thread Electro-mechanical engines of Perpetual Motion and Natural Selection) it is quickly apparent that they care little for what the evidence actually says.When it comes to conspiracies, or to anything really, the science types are looking for evidence, and to them, those who are really only looking for ideas they find appealing come across as anti-science.--Percy

Perpetual motion machines were just an example. The point was how common it is for anti-science folks to think they're actually in favor of science. Substitute wheatgrass juice for perpetual motion machines.Scientific rigor requires following the evidence where it leads, not where one wishes it would lead. Tesla and related conspiracies might make interesting stories, but it is always the case with large-scale long-term conspiracies that speculation far outweighs fact. Concerning a Tesla superweapon suppressed by a long-term conspiracy, there's little evidence of such a thing either historically on in the realm of known scientific possibility.--Percy

I have no position one way or other about Tesla, not specifically, anyway. If you want to credit Tesla for all those things you mentioned, which I'd never heard of before, then go ahead, it doesn't matter to me. My position concerns the unlikelihood of large-scale long-term conspiracies, whether they're about Tesla or anyone or anything else.--Percy

Maybe you should start a Tesla thread. This thread only concerns Tesla so far as his involvement in superweapons technology, where Son Goku has defined superweapons to mean war technology that is largely secret.Concerning superweapons whose secrecy has been maintained by many people over long time periods, in other words, a long-term large-scale secret conspiracy, this seems very unlikely to me.--Percy

This is off-topic, just wanted to briefly note I'm watching the video, it promises to be very informative, and there's some really impressive PowerPoint slides that look so incredibly free form you'd think a human being actually wrote them! I didn't know they had that kind of technology in 1994! More seriously to Randman, if you'd like to discuss the mainstream/non-mainstream nature of Sidney Coleman's views on quantum theory, propose a thread over at [forum=-25].--Percy

Hi Cavediver,I'm only up to 7:34 of the lecture, and I'm already going to have to drop out. His viewgraphs are not legible in the video, and he just said this: This drew laughter, and I thought he was joking and was going to repeat what he'd just said in English, but he immediately goes to the next slide: I'm already hopelessly lost, and he's only on slide 2. Maybe you should conduct an interactive thread-based lecture series on what Coleman's saying.--Percy

Would it be correct to say that your position is that was some aspect of Tesla's theory of electromagnetism that we're as yet unaware of that would allow over-the-horizon radar without the need for an atmospheric reflective layer?--Percy

I think your claim is getting lost in other details. Your claim, as best I understand it and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Tesla developed an electromagnetic field theory that remains secret to this day except to governments (just the American government?) and that makes possible an over-the-horizon radar that doesn't take advantage of a reflective atmosphere, and that these principles also serve as the theoretical foundation for some type of superweapon yet unnamed.But because the government is keeping all this secret, you can't tell us anything specific about any of this.--Percy

Two things.First, the word "disingenius". I love this word! All it needs is a definition. I love that it isn't based upon "ingenious" but "genius", and so a good definition might be "being stupid in a manner possible only for a genius."Second, I assume you meant "disingenuous". No, I wasn't being disingenuous, and if I could slip briefly into admin mode, if you suspect someone is taking you for a ride in a thread then the proper place to voice your concerns is in the Windsor castle thread. But I think the frequency with which you think you're being mistreated has more to do with you than with everyone else. Of course, but your claims about Tesla seem more mythological than factual, not to mention that most of them have nothing to do with the topic. Whenever I'm in a bookstore I always make sure to pass by the science section, and yesterday I noticed there's now a couple books out about Tesla, so I guess he's receiving increased attention these days.But it has seemed to me that you are much more interested in discussing the entire Tesla mythology rather than just the small portion that is the topic of this thread, and I've been trying to nail down your specific claim that is relevant to this thread (if you'd like to discuss Tesla more broadly, please propose a thread over at [forum=-25]). So, to repeat my Message 68:"Your claim, as best I understand it and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Tesla developed an electromagnetic field theory that remains secret to this day except to governments (just the American government?) and that makes possible an over-the-horizon radar that doesn't take advantage of a reflective atmosphere, and that these principles also serve as the theoretical foundation for some type of superweapon yet unnamed."But because the government is keeping all this secret, you can't tell us anything specific about any of this."Reading ahead in the thread, I see you mention wireless power transmission as the possible basis for a superweapon. Is this also based upon Tesla's secret electromagnetic field theory that you've mentioned? And is this the technology that you believe the government has been sitting on and keeping secret and never using for over a half century? If so, then as I've said before, large-scale long-term secret conspiracies seem very unlikely, especially by governments.And if I could slip briefly into admin mode again, while reading your subsequent posts I noticed something, and so I'd like to reiterate something that has always been of prime importance here at EvC Forum, and that is that members are required to debate primarily in their own words and not through cut-n-pastes. This is from the Forum Guidelines:

6. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

--Percy

I think this paragraph from Wikipedia's Tesla article best describes my position on your Tesla claims: This of course includes any claims about superweapons.--Percy

Because you're primarily discussing Tesla in general rather than Tesla as he relates to this thread's topic, I'm having difficulty discerning which among your many claims about Tesla are the ones relevant to this thread's topic. That's why I keep asking. If you mean am I familiar with the "hidden knowledge" mythology that has developed around Tesla, no, I'm not "well-educated" about it. But this thread is only about a tiny part of Tesla's work, that connected to the development of secret superweapons. Is a discussion of this thread's topic ever going to actually emerge? Since Tesla and superweapons are this thread's topic, this doesn't sound very promising. But you seem to be very interested in discussing Tesla more generally, and so I suggest you propose a thread over at [forum=-25].Moving on to your Message 80: But I do mind, I mind a great deal, because I'm just asking questions about what your views are. Instead of answers I'm being ignored and accused of disingenuousness and BS, so if my guesses about your views are off the mark then you have only yourself to blame.For what it's worth, my belief that you were talking about a secret Tesla theory of electromagnetism stems from your Message 34: I thought you were saying that current theory is faulty, and government scientists know it's faulty and have known this for at least a couple generations but have kept it secret. I believe what I've said is that you're mythologizing Tesla, and that I find unlikely the possibility of long-term large-scale secret conspiracies. If you want to put this in personal terms, though I wish you wouldn't, by asking whom we should believe, then I think we should believe the guy who has evidence for his position. Which guy this is will be brought out through discussion.Sorry for the long message, let me briefly summarize my understanding of your position. You're saying that because many of Tesla's technical papers remain classified that we cannot know if any secret superweapons have been developed using them. Do I have that right?--Percy