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Author Topic:   Tesla and Superweapons.
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2979 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 76 of 81 (463204)
04-13-2008 2:32 AM


not to bore people but....
Tesla's chief interest lay in experimenting with energy (electromagnetic spectrum) not general physics theory, and we use his early discoveries today as the basis for our current electrical and radio technology, but Tesla insisted when these things were being put to use that people were using less efficient means of such systems. The reason we adopted such systems, despite their inefficiency according to Tesla, is easily explained by basic economics. JP Morgan, one of Tesla's financiers, flat out stated if Tesla's wireless power system was adopted, he could only make money selling the antennas, and so promptly cut his funding. Westinghouse also refused to go further for the same concerns.

Why obsolete wired power when so much money could be made on it? So we use Tesla's first generation stuff.

The question is how much further did Tesla go in his research and how much further can we?

A recent discovery I found interesting is the apparent production of terrestrial gamma rays associated with lightning. We know Tesla generated man-made lightning and experimented greatly.....one wonders what secrets he alone understood and are lost, in part, because of simple economics.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050502190314.htm

It is thought that Tesla could produce ball lightning and once had to smash his apparatus with a sledgehammer to stop the energy tap from continuing to increase.

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Percy, posted 04-13-2008 8:53 AM randman has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18310
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 77 of 81 (463209)
04-13-2008 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by randman
04-12-2008 9:01 PM


Re: Tesla's own words....
randman writes:

It's hard to tell if you are just being disingenius or not.

Two things.

First, the word "disingenius". I love this word! All it needs is a definition. I love that it isn't based upon "ingenious" but "genius", and so a good definition might be "being stupid in a manner possible only for a genius."

Second, I assume you meant "disingenuous". No, I wasn't being disingenuous, and if I could slip briefly into admin mode, if you suspect someone is taking you for a ride in a thread then the proper place to voice your concerns is in the Windsor castle thread. But I think the frequency with which you think you're being mistreated has more to do with you than with everyone else.

randman writes:

Had you ever heard of Tesla before a few days ago?

Of course, but your claims about Tesla seem more mythological than factual, not to mention that most of them have nothing to do with the topic. Whenever I'm in a bookstore I always make sure to pass by the science section, and yesterday I noticed there's now a couple books out about Tesla, so I guess he's receiving increased attention these days.

But it has seemed to me that you are much more interested in discussing the entire Tesla mythology rather than just the small portion that is the topic of this thread, and I've been trying to nail down your specific claim that is relevant to this thread (if you'd like to discuss Tesla more broadly, please propose a thread over at Proposed New Topics). So, to repeat my Message 68:

"Your claim, as best I understand it and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that Tesla developed an electromagnetic field theory that remains secret to this day except to governments (just the American government?) and that makes possible an over-the-horizon radar that doesn't take advantage of a reflective atmosphere, and that these principles also serve as the theoretical foundation for some type of superweapon yet unnamed.

"But because the government is keeping all this secret, you can't tell us anything specific about any of this."

Reading ahead in the thread, I see you mention wireless power transmission as the possible basis for a superweapon. Is this also based upon Tesla's secret electromagnetic field theory that you've mentioned? And is this the technology that you believe the government has been sitting on and keeping secret and never using for over a half century? If so, then as I've said before, large-scale long-term secret conspiracies seem very unlikely, especially by governments.

And if I could slip briefly into admin mode again, while reading your subsequent posts I noticed something, and so I'd like to reiterate something that has always been of prime importance here at EvC Forum, and that is that members are required to debate primarily in their own words and not through cut-n-pastes. This is from the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by randman, posted 04-12-2008 9:01 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by randman, posted 04-13-2008 2:10 PM Percy has responded
 Message 80 by randman, posted 04-13-2008 2:20 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18310
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 78 of 81 (463212)
04-13-2008 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by randman
04-13-2008 2:32 AM


Re: not to bore people but....
I think this paragraph from Wikipedia's Tesla article best describes my position on your Tesla claims:

Wikipedia on Tesla writes:

In the years after [his death], many of his innovations, theories and claims have been used, at times unsuitably and with some controversy, to support various fringe theories that are regarded as unscientific...his extravagant personality and sometimes unrealistic claims, combined with his unquestionable genius, have made him a popular figure among fringe theorists and believers in conspiracies about 'hidden knowledge'.

This of course includes any claims about superweapons.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by randman, posted 04-13-2008 2:32 AM randman has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2979 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 79 of 81 (463224)
04-13-2008 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Percy
04-13-2008 8:38 AM


Re: Tesla's own words....
Of course, but your claims about Tesla seem more mythological than factual

Which specific claims? You do not even seem to be aware of what my claims, which are just Tesla's, and you don't seem that well-educated on Tesla in general.

Do I think he invented, developed or was an earlier pioneer of:

radio
the power grid and type of electricity we use today
radar
the induction motor
remote control
voice recognition technology within remote control
flurescent lighting
turbines that are more efficient and still just being developed today
X-rays
etc,...

yes.

Do I buy his claims of a wireless power distribution? Yes.

It's very clear why we didn't go with his system despite it being more efficient, and the reason is economic.

Do I think it's possible he did develop and test a weaponized ray?
Yes, but we have less evidence for that. Considering his understanding of frequency and his claims, I think it's safer to bet he was correct than not.

Has his later technology been weaponized? Hard to say since we only use his first generation stuff commercially available.

Did the US government seize and classify his papers, suggesting they considered his claims at least potentially credible?
Yes.

As far as superweapons, it's hard to say. His technology remains classified, and later in his life (well after he developed some of the items above), he sufferred under great stress due to poverty.

Nevertheless, his research and development of electricity and other frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum is in some respects unparralled, and it seems likely many secrets died with him, as commercial interests did not wish to fund technology that would obsolete the massive profit making systems of electrical production. Utilities are big business.

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Percy, posted 04-13-2008 8:38 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Percy, posted 04-13-2008 5:27 PM randman has not yet responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2979 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 80 of 81 (463226)
04-13-2008 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Percy
04-13-2008 8:38 AM


Re: Tesla's own words....
Btw, Tesla was first and foremost interested in developing specific apparatus. No need for a secret theory is warranted....that's just you putting up BS, if you don't mind my saying.

It's important to realize, as I showed with terrestrial gamma rays being discovered, that we don't have a firm understanding of the areas Tesla worked in. So we have theories but they are just that. Tesla's ideas or some of them concerning electricity and power may well be correct. We cannot say for sure how lightning works for one, although Tesla was pretty good at creating and manipulating artificial lightning.

Tesla claimed he could dampen waves or convert power to a wave which propagated like a sound wave and didn't spread out in all directions. That's a huge part of why he insisted the way we employ wireless technology and his own polyphased A/C wired system was inefficient and wasteful. Considering he was a master at taking energy and changing it into different frequences for use and that to this day, over 100 years later, we still rely in his earliest work and discoveries, I think it't reasonable to take his claims of being able to produce or tap into longitidunal waves as very credible.

In other words, whom should we believe? Percy or the guy that gave us all this stuff we use today?

Wonder why someone would think Tesla was credible.....hmmm

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Percy, posted 04-13-2008 8:38 AM Percy has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18310
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 81 of 81 (463232)
04-13-2008 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by randman
04-13-2008 2:10 PM


Re: Tesla's own words....
randman writes:

Of course, but your claims about Tesla seem more mythological than factual

Which specific claims? You do not even seem to be aware of what my claims are...

Because you're primarily discussing Tesla in general rather than Tesla as he relates to this thread's topic, I'm having difficulty discerning which among your many claims about Tesla are the ones relevant to this thread's topic. That's why I keep asking.

...which are just Tesla's, and you don't seem that well-educated on Tesla in general.

If you mean am I familiar with the "hidden knowledge" mythology that has developed around Tesla, no, I'm not "well-educated" about it. But this thread is only about a tiny part of Tesla's work, that connected to the development of secret superweapons. Is a discussion of this thread's topic ever going to actually emerge?

As far as superweapons, it's hard to say. His technology remains classified, and later in his life (well after he developed some of the items above), he sufferred under great stress due to poverty.

Since Tesla and superweapons are this thread's topic, this doesn't sound very promising. But you seem to be very interested in discussing Tesla more generally, and so I suggest you propose a thread over at Proposed New Topics.

Moving on to your Message 80:

randman in Message 80 writes:

Btw, Tesla was first and foremost interested in developing specific apparatus. No need for a secret theory is warranted....that's just you putting up BS, if you don't mind my saying.

But I do mind, I mind a great deal, because I'm just asking questions about what your views are. Instead of answers I'm being ignored and accused of disingenuousness and BS, so if my guesses about your views are off the mark then you have only yourself to blame.

For what it's worth, my belief that you were talking about a secret Tesla theory of electromagnetism stems from your Message 34:

randman in Message 34 writes:

Are there really longtidunal EM waves that work like sound waves, as he claimed? I think his work and claims suggest there is. Just like his claim of over the horizon radar 100 years ago turned out to be correct, I believe he is correct here but that mainstream scientific opinion has been slow to give proper review of what he was saying out of their ignorance, founded on faulty theory.

I thought you were saying that current theory is faulty, and government scientists know it's faulty and have known this for at least a couple generations but have kept it secret.

In other words, whom should we believe? Percy or the guy that gave us all this stuff we use today?

I believe what I've said is that you're mythologizing Tesla, and that I find unlikely the possibility of long-term large-scale secret conspiracies. If you want to put this in personal terms, though I wish you wouldn't, by asking whom we should believe, then I think we should believe the guy who has evidence for his position. Which guy this is will be brought out through discussion.

Sorry for the long message, let me briefly summarize my understanding of your position. You're saying that because many of Tesla's technical papers remain classified that we cannot know if any secret superweapons have been developed using them. Do I have that right?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by randman, posted 04-13-2008 2:10 PM randman has not yet responded

    
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