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Member (Idle past 1500 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
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Author | Topic: How Old is the Earth ? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"I believe that time is circular, and therefore you cannot put a time on the beginning of the universe. The cosmos, which may be composed of an infinite # of universes, never bagan and won't ever end."
--Age of the earth, not origin of the Universe, also, are you a cosmologist? I was just wondering. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"What do you want to know about cosmology TC?"
--I guess I wasn't really asking, but I would come up with a couple questions such as the methods for star measurement and the like, cosmology is another one of those fields that I would love to get into, Though I would rather Geology Marine/Geophysics, Molecular and celluar biology, and ofcourse cosmology/cosmogeny/astrophysics, and its relatives. --I would argue in the cosmological field of a young earth, but I would be to have the equiptment to carry on discussion as I could site many different theories and everything like that, but I would have to know the information and how everything works to sustain the argument. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Well,lets consider the diverging points of view here...one one side,you have creationist establishing the age of the earth at 6152 years old based entirely on the reading of a book writen God know when and God know by whom(the creationists themselves dont even know who the autor(s) is)"
--Who said it was 6152 years old? "that may very well be just a collection of recycled mythologies from earlier times,stating that from jesus,who lived about 2000 years ago"--Just remember ludvanB, this argument is not at all valid untill you can figure some support. "(some people often forget that there is a 5-10% tolerence to our calendar...meaning that today we might be in the year somewhere between 1802 and 2202)"--Cool, but where did you get the 5-10% tolerance assertion, never heard of it? "they could go back 4150 years counting the genealogy of men who supposadly lived to by 900+ year all the way to Adam,the alledged human on earth after the 6 day creation thereof. And on the other extreme,you have people who studied the question for years,decades and even centuries(not the same guys,since we dont live 900 like the patriarch of christianity alledgedly did),and in many fields of study,have converged toward the ball park conclusion(aside from math,nothing is ever 100% precise in science) that our world is ABOUT 4 billion years old. Based on these facts,who would you say sounds like the more plausible alternative?"--I don't at all argue, and I should hope no other creatinist does unless they have a very, and I mean very good reason for it, that the earth is young by geneological records. Also what are these facts that say that the world is in the billions of years (4.5 at estimate), that the young earth cannot deal with. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"How strong is your math background?"
--I'm strong, but I'm still inadvancment in math. I am doing some Physics and I'll have to get into calc soon. "If your comfortable with calculus I really recomend this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201547309/qid=1013807778/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_67_1/002-5138200-2718434 It was one of the texts I used at Uni and is very good as a undergrad level intro to everything from planetary motion to the black holes...."--I think that this would be a very good book, I remember you recomended it to me earlier in another forum, I don't think i'll be able to purchase it, though I'll have to check the local libaries. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Wasn't calculus a Roman Caesar?
May as well be......" --I think we were speaking of mathematics. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Has anyone entertained the idea that if God created Adam as an adult why couldnt he create the earth as a million years old?"
--Because Adam was actaually '0' years old when he was an created. You could argue if you really wanted to that the world 'look's' millions/billions of years old, but really at the day of creation it was 0. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"I just wish to point out that there has previously been considerable discussion on this topic, at the Great Debate topics:"
--I think my Dating methods discussion forum sort of collapsed because it was too vague, there were many conversations in various areas all going on at the same time. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
I should have emphesized my position being nothing near the idea that it 'looks' millions/billions of years old.
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Oh. I'm sorry TC. I'm not a cosmologist. But perhaps you could enlighten me. I have a theory on tie, and you are SURE that Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan, Charles Darwin, and the like, are completely mistaken."
--Besides the argument from athority, I'm sure that you are well aware that all these great scientists arent all Old earthers. "I think one of the biggest issues here is light from such things as quasars (quasars-right?). This light was emitted billions of light years away."--How really do you know that light is billions of light years away, but I wouldn't be so readilly arguing with that point. "I've heard ALL the creationist theories."--I'm sure you have. "1) Satan created the light to deceive us."--lol. "2) God created the light to test our faith (well that's kinda stupid)"--Oh goodness.. "3) The universe had existed long before humans and earth, and the light had thus been coming towards our planet for millions of years*(where does it say that in the Bible again?)" --Concievable, tell you the truth, I don't think I should argue this point because I think this is plausable, but then again I still have humphreys book to read along with other cosmological texts. --theres other theories, such as light varying in speed, not on its self, but by its environmental conditions, ie, is it a vacuum of space and what not. "*One of the most common ways the creationists counter questions is by throwing things into creationism that are not once mentioned."Genesis 1 - In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth -- "For example: I was talking to one creationist, and I asked him how all the plants in the world had regrown so fast. He told me that they had brought seeds onto the Ark. Now can someone please tell me if seeds were brought on the Ark?"--Seeds were not brought on the ark, if you really wan't an answer find some seeds and throw them in your pool, they don't just sink, also if your going to have the masses of vegetation floating on the oceans your going to have seeds on them also. "If the creationists want to take the bible as a history book, then they better not add bits of history to it just so it all makes sense. You're just gonna have to defend it the way it is."--I fully agree. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"LUD:some creationist do give this precise date...others are content to say 6000-ish"
--Yes, I know some people that even say 'The earth was created 6150 years 154 days on August 29 at 7p.m. Its kinda sad too. "LUD:It is valid. Its not iron clad but it is valid. I've given you the explanation in another thread."--Yes you have and its definantly...not iron clad, its more along the lines of hoover damn exploding. "LUD:talk to some historians....very few people outside historian circle are aware that our caledar is an aproximation....once you get more than 500 years into the past,they cant say for sure if its another 1500 to the birth of christ...so they give a tolerence that varies from 5 to 10%,depending on who you talk to but they are quite correct to do this...there is very little writen record that is consistant with one another when you get that far back."--Oh Ic, I though you were implying that there is found 5-10% errors in biblical text, I was going to ask if you chould show me them. "And as i told you,serious historians and anthropologists say they can usually spot a fraud when it tries to be unrealisticaly precise."--I would say it is then easilly falsifiable, so has this happend to the bible? "LUD:several carbon dating methods on moon rocks i believe have give this number..."--You can't carbon date moon rocks, they are void of organic material. "personally,i wouldn't think they give it absolute trust but they do uniformely(geologist) believe that based on the evidence at hand,they earth is WAY older than allowed by the Bible."--Is there really anything else besides radiometric techniques that will give these ages? ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"TC, I think you are very naive about young earth creationism. Such organisations as answereingenesis and ICR DO view the earth as being 10,000 years or less old. They are very active in trying to discredit and rebut all evidence (geological, astronomical etc.) of a 4.5 billion year old earth."
--I am aware they are, I didn't say they werent, so whats that evidence that they are rebuking and is it valid, thats what were here for. "If you find their "evidence" on the age of the earth unconvincing, you might wonder how good their "evidence" against biological evolution is."--Whats all the evidence and can we discuss it, or should we just say everyone that attempts rebutal is ignorant and leave it at that. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"I thought that article was very interesting. I don't think there is disputing the reliability of tree-ring counting and the conclusions that can be drawn from it.
If there are trees that go far beyond the creationist's proposed age of earth, how can this be rationally explained."--Unfortunatelly the site you referenced gave precious little detail; --Here is a segment of one of an essay/article I wrote a couple months ago before I entered this debate, with quotes: quote: "seems to me to be another nail in the creationist's coffin."--I would be happy to discuss any of your other 'nails'. ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Can't use carbon dating on a lava flow. Carbon has to be fixed from the air by living things for that method to work, so you can only use carbon dating on something that was once alive and is still organic in composition."
--I think he may have been aware of that (probably not but, but hey theres always room to recover), I got the same thing by lud saying that they carbon dated moon rocks, but I know that he most likely knows what is wrong with that. "If God created an apparently mature world, then all of "Scientific Creationism" is invalidated, because then all evidence would necessarily indicate an old Earth. Hence, CvsE would be moot."--True, I think that its the factors that we look at that are evident of different things, currently I am only aware of radioisotopes that give you the ages of the 'earth' or the moon and celestial astroids, etc. Whether the world 'looks' old is a matter of opinion, whether the evidence says it looks old is a little more scientific. --What I find that is unfortunate is that there are no YEC Creationists here to join the debate, so there is a strong unbalancment there, but I am glad I can hold out in many areas the way I do. -----------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"We don't?! Where did they all go?"
--Oops! , I meant to say something along the lines of a collage major in a scientific field. Silly me ------------------
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"The deception in God's creation would not be in creating a fully developed earth, but in creating an earth with untrue evidence of a development which never happened."
--What is the evidence that shows this and why is it evidence that could only be interpereted for such a vast age of the Earth? (added by edit) Oops, I just saw your post directly preceiding mine, though if there is anything else you would like to add to the list I could comment. ------------------ [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 02-17-2002]
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