Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

Read Buzsaw's message #30. See? He agrees with me.

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1. Prophecy can be good or bad and if the texts are about contemporary or past events they are historical and not prophetic.

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The events prophesied in the latter Ezekiel chapters are clearly prophetic of future events, some of which we have observed.

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It certainly ISN'T obvious that any of Ezekiel's prophecies are intended to refer to events of our time or later. All the clues in the text point to something far closer than Ezekiels own time. That's why you are asserting that those clues are wrong.

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2. Obviously you choose to ignore the obvious relative to the restoration of Israel as prophesied by OT prophets and Jesus himself. That's your prerogative and I'm not wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.

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The OT prophets generally referred to other returns. Your favourite found only in Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse likely WASN'T said by Jesus (neither Mark nor Matthew make any mention of it) and DIDN'T happen in the predicted timescale (Luke 21:32).It's not that I am ignoring facts. It is that I don't ignore facts that you don't like.

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Bluegenes: Keep on like this, and Buzsaw will start believing that you're a prophet.

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Yes, so I prophesied.

Read the verses I quoted again. Are you suggesting that the use of the word "prince" is wrong, and that Gog was a land, or the angel of a land? I've put another bit in bold, for your eschatological mind to exercise itself on.King James:Ezekiel:38:1

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The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of [a] Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army”your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush [c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops”the many nations with you.

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The thing about this is that if you take it literally, you've got the word of a God coming to a man (Ezekiel) telling him to tell a living prince of two lands that He (the God) is against him (the prince) and will cause him to come out with his great army, with their horses, swords, shields etc.So, you're clearly not taking this translation literally. You can change the words to fit your desire for an imminent armageddon and second coming. If you can change the words to mean that the God is saying that he will cause the long distant descendants of Gog to go forth with their guns, body armour and tanks, you could change them into anything you want to. You seem to be changing the word "prince" to mean "the future people of a land."With that amount of linguistic license, you could equally change the word "Israel" into "America" and make the whole thing into a story about what will happen to your country in 500 years time. Whatever you feel like, and whatever fits your desires.Your logic could be "how would Ezekiel know about the future chosen people of God and their homeland (the Americans), so he would describe his visions by referring to lands that he knew of."That's the exact same argument that you use for the weapons, when you claim that Ezekial could have described modern weapons in terms of his own culture, and turned a missile launcher on a tripod into a (three legged:rolleyes bow.So, all you're doing is playing with the words and phrases of some cryptic prophesies to make them mean what you want them to mean. And the fancy name for this process of self-delusion is "eschatology".

Bluejeans, listen to me. Lets go at this as if it was a science project. First, we need to assemble all the givens relative to this Gog and Magog.1. This Gog is called a prince. Now let's search the scriptures and learn something about how this word term, prince is used.
a. Isa 9:6 Messiah as prince.
b. Ezek 37:25 Messiah/prince
c. Ezek 38:2 Prince of Magog
d. Rev 1:5 prince/Jesus/Messiah
e. Rev 7:8 Gog/Magog (not designated as prince but shows Gog/Magog refers to messianic fulfillment times. This is after millennial reign of messiah when Satan is loosed for a season to deceive nations/destruction of world.)
f. Dan 8:11, 9:25, 10:13 Prince of Persia (evil) withstood Michael who was archangel/prince of God's people.
g. Dan 8:20 Prince of Greece (evil)
h. Matthew 9:34, 12:24, Mark 3:22 prince of devils (evil Satan)
i. Matthew 12:38 prince of this world (Satan)
j. Eph 2:2 prince of power of air (Satan)2. We see from the above that this Gog is likely an angelic/demonic prince over the land of Magog, Magog being the son of Japheth one of Noah's 3 sons & grandson of Noah. Magog's descendants were the Scythians which migrated into Russia so Gog was likely the celestial prince of that realm on earth just as Persia, Greece and God's people had a celestial prince. Thus the mention of Gog in both Ezekiel relative to the latter days as well as Revelation in the NT referring to messianic era.3. I found an interesting
link for what it's worth. I can't render a judgement on it but perhaps it has some merit. This link tells how the Scythians (descendants of Gog/Magog) had terrible evil rituals etc in their culture, likely inspired by this celestial prince.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

If the word "prince" can mean "demon prince" and the word "horses" can mean "tanks", and the word "locust" could mean "demons", then the word "prophecy" could mean "bullshit" and the word "prophet" could mean "delusional schizophrenic" or "bullshitter".Is the Bible the word of God to you?In the verses I quoted, Ezekiel says the word of God came to him, and he proceeds to give us God's words, and those words include horses and horsemen, shields (large and small), helmets, and swords (which will be brandished). Elsewhere in the chapter, we get bows and arrows.It's your Holy Book, and your God, and he seems to be very definite about the type of technology these armies of the prince are using, and that is not the technology of today.You can change these words to suit your desires, but don't you risk the eternal damnation of your God by putting words into his mouth? If he had wanted to describe tanks, jet fighters and rocket launchers in the words of the times, he certainly could have done so.Are you suggesting that your God is such an idiot that the best description of a gun he could come up with was just to call it a sword?Beware the eternal fire, O Buzsaw.Edited by bluegenes, : typo

Obviously, contending with you is a waste, Bluejeans. You have no concept of how eschatology works. Much of it is clearly metaphorical such as all the beasts of Daniel, etc. Your mindset is capable of comprehending the here, the now and the physical. That's it. The natural man comprehends not the things of the spirit of God. You refuse to accept anything observable which lends support to a higher realm of intelligence such as the fact that the land of Israel now blossoms after nearly two millenniums of desolation and of the Jews, God's prophesied kingdom nation being regathered from the nations as these prophesies stated over two millenniums ago.Hopefully my time is not wasted here as other more wiseminded folks who see how phenomenal this regathering of the people to such an area of desolation really is and will give God due credit where credit belongs.When one takes the names of the peoples mentioned in Ezekiel 38, analyzes them as to who the modern descendants are, all one needs do is take a look at the Muslim world and where it's power is being concentrated against this regathered messianic people, Israel. Then go, figure.Your problem is that you get hung up on terminologies, honing in on them and throwing out the baby with the bath water, choosing to ignore the big picture that is clearly designated as to be fulfilled in the end times.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Hi Buzz,I been reading along and it is very intersting. I was allowed in the 70' to see the Aim 9 missile being loaded they are cute little fellows.They are designed like an arrow. I included a link to a modern Aim 9 2004 model. I thought you might be interested. HereThere is another little item you might be interested in its for darts and arrows:
HereGod Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thanks ICant. As well, if perhaps the prophet saw one fire with the missle visible it would indeed be as some advanced version of bow and arrow weaponry.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Which means that you have no answer to the obvious point that prophecies about armies on horse back with swords and shields have nothing to do with modern times. I have a good understanding of the capacity of the religious mind for self-delusion, which means, unlike you, I do know how eschatology works. Your prophesies are supposed to come true in the here, now, and physical. Does blossoming mean being about the most troubled country I've ever visited? Most of the Diaspora have not returned to Israel, and I don't blame them. And some Jews never left the area. Kingdoms have monarchs, BTW. There's nothing phenomenal about modern Zionism. The Jews invented the myth that they were the chosen tribe of God with a promised land, and the modern movement is because of this belief. It is self-fulfilling prophesy. It's as if you had a grandmother who was considered to be a visionary, and she had predicted that the Buzsaw family would move from New York to Chicago in the year 2009, then you go and move to Chicago because of your belief in her powers, then start going on about how the prophecy was fulfilled.As for giving your God credit, I certainly give belief in the Abrahamic God by all three of his religions a lot of credit for the current mess in the middle-east. I have figured, and you haven't. The "chosen tribe of God" were in land disputes with their neighbours at the time of Moses, and have been ever since, including at the time of Ezekiel. There's nothing magic in it. It's hardly the only example of neighbouring tribes having land and border disputes in different periods of history.The prophecy says Gog, not his descendents, will come forth with his low-tech armies. Your eschatology is clearly based on terminology. If some of the words seem to fit your view, you try to take them as written. When they don't, they become "metaphorical".Edited by bluegenes, : typo

So Buz, as a demonstration of the fruits of your status as an "expert" on Biblical prophecy you have not only created a new thread - rather than address my points in the Lebanon thread - you are refusing to address many of my points in this thread, too. Really you should have the honesty to admit that you don't really know or understand this stuff.For a further demonstration consider this:

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...if perhaps the prophet saw one fire with the missle visible it would indeed be as some advanced version of bow and arrow weaponry.

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The obvious questions to ask are" Is the prophecy a vision, and is the description compatible with missiles ?For Ezekiel 39 the answer is a clear NO on both points. In Ezekiel 39 the prophet claims to be repeating words that God has sent him - words not a vision.And the verses which mention bows and arrows are: Neither sounds really like a modern missile (and certainly not an aircraft-launched missile like the Sidewinder ICANT showed !). But they do sound awfully like real bows and arrows ! A bow would be held in the left hand and an arrow in he right - even a handheld launcher requires both hands. Ancient bows and arrows would burn easily and safely. Burning a missile is inadvisable - and an empty launcher is not likely to burn well !

When God says He will "brandish His sword against them" does He literally mean His Sword? What use does God have for a Sword when He just has to speak the word and they will be snuffed out?Look at Revelation 9:3. When describing the Locusts, does it literally mean locusts with the features mentioned? Looking at it from the visionary's point of view, how would you describe the vision you are seeing with NO knowledge of what it is you are seeing?If you read Daniel, the dreams of Nebuchadnezzar were those of rams and goats with horns. When Daniel interpreted those dreams, they weren't referring to actual rams and goats, but each had a distinct meaning and referenced something that was to take place in the near future (To Nebuchadnezzar himself).There are many many references to bible prophecy, like in Daniel where it wasn't really meant for that time, so was vague to them and many times prophecies were revealed, the images were so frightening, the prophets nearly had heart attacks. They couldn't possibly understand what it was they were seeing and had no way of finding relative words to use to explain them except to call them what they were currently familiar with. i.e. stars falling from heaven.Edited by godservant, : No reason given.

What difference be the semantics when discussing events?It's all semantics. God used words people of that time and times after would understand yet laid events that would be obvious enough that scholars would be able to clearly identify given corresponding scripture and experience that they would be obvious to the spiritually enlightened and open to the word of God.You have to search the rest of scripture to examine it in a broader scope. Clearly, other prophets and the book of revelation all refer to the same events happening and can all validate one another in light of biblical and historical evidence.biblical scholars who try to identify exact events to happen in light of historic and present conditions still have much to learn, but as time goes on and world events ensue, it's easier to understand what the prophecies could be referring to and therefore, give us a better idea of when all these things will come to a head and who the end time players will be."You will know when it's near, even at the door".

Sometimes it seems as if I'm the only person here who actually reads the Bible. The prophecies in question are NOT accounts of visions. They are supposedly God's words sent directly to Ezekiel.

If things are so vague to mean anything anybody wants to, what is the purpose of it? I mean, if you vary what the symbol means, you can make it mean anything you want.That makes the whole process invalid in my opinion.