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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Supernatural
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 1 of 107 (41563)
05-28-2003 3:43 AM


Today a friend was telling me about a book by Mark Twain that scoffs at Christianity (no surprise there). One of the things he mentions is that Christians have invented (in Twain's opinion) a god, but he never answers any of their prayers.
I can understand that. Charles Finney, a famous 19th century evangelist, had the same complaint about the Presbyterians in his home town. They had no faith, he said, and their prayers all went unanswered.
Maybe 15 years ago I was attending a typical evangelical church, and a child was severely injured in a bike accident. We stayed at the hospital for days, praying. I think I was there overnight two or three nights in a row. The boy never woke up, and he died. The parents were devastated, especially the mom.
I told some people on this web site that I've seen evidence for the supernatural. Not necessarily repeatable, testable evidence, but certainly court room type evidence, where you listen to witnesses. I'd like to try to present some. I've left Christianity now, to join with people who've been willing to go pretty far for God, and I think the life we live is pretty amazing.
We often have men's meetings on Saturday mornings. One morning we were meeting, and one of the men's wives was having a baby. (The man wasn't at the meeting, of course, he was at home with his wife.) I don't remember the problem, but I do remember it frightened the midwife enough for her to interrupt the meeting and ask us to pray. One of the men started to pray, but he really never got very far, because a child was sent to tell us the emergency was over. I think the baby needed to turn, or the cord was around the baby's neck, or something.
There was a car accident involving one of the mothers in our village and three of her kids. Her 7-year-old was hurt by the seat belt. It ruptured her spleen and nearly severed her liver. I was on vacation in California at the time. We were all horrified. We began to pray. By that evening, something began to settle over us, even me in California. The dad of the 7-year-old called me, and I told him, "I'm scared to tell you this, in case I'm wrong, but I feel like everything's okay; there's nothing to worry about."
We, as a group, could feel it, although it went against our natural human urge to worry. At one point the evening of the accident (which happened in the morning) one of our men told another, "Relax. I don't think you need to pray anymore." Many of us felt that way. It turned out to be true. She recovered completely (although her spleen was taken out that first night).
In case it seems like we just "trust in faith" or something, another time one of our ladies took a sudden illness. She went to the hospital, was sent home, went back in a couple days, and was immediately sent by helicopter to a bigger facility. We prayed and prayed, until the one of our men said, "We need to let her go. God's calling her home." Many of us could tell that was true (not me, I wondered), but she died the next morning, in the hospital. The hospital was never able to determine the cause of the sickness.
That may sound awful, but the results were great. The husband was not devastated. He was comforted in advance (though not much in advance). He was confident that it was the hand of God (we all have to die sometime, anyway), and we were able to rejoice, because we believe she's better off now, not subject to the woes of this body and earthly life. (We held a celebration and danced at her funeral, as did her husband, because we don't believe life ends at the death of the body, nor do we consider ourselves separated for her except in natural ways. Paul said he wrote what he wrote in the Letter to the Thessalonians so that we wouldn't mourn as others mourn.)
Sometimes when people join our village, we give them new names. We were visiting with a couple in North Carolina, about three families of us, that had decided to come live with us, and together we came up with a name for the wife. It's the Hebrew word for dove, Naqi. At the same time, back in Tennessee, a couple had given birth to a baby. They picked a name for her, too. It was Naqi.
We don't have anyone else here, among 200 people, named Naqi. We do tend to give Hebrew names (well, we did then), but there are a lot of Hebrew words, and Naqi is not a name, as far as we know, of anyone in the Bible.
We used to use banners a lot. I had heard stories from before I joined about an individual banner swinging wildly while hanging outside on a windless day. Even as a new member I had my doubts, figuring there was some good explanation. Until, that is, I was at a gathering, standing about 2 feet from a banner hanging on a pole that began swinging wildly. I was talking at the time (any of us can talk at our gatherings), but I paused to wave my hand next to the banner, trying to figure out if there was a breeze around it I couldn't feel. Nothing at all, and it was a 4-foot long, 3 foot wide banner, swinging at least two feet from side to side, quite rapidly.
By themselves, maybe none of these things mean much. However, I could gather hundreds of these stories. Our prayers are answered, regularly. We live confidently by that inner voice that has helped us to know "this is an emergency, go to the hospital," or "there's nothing to worry about, put a little medicine on it."
Oh, this was important to me. I walked into our living room one day, back when we had a main communal house, and the living room was full--about twenty adults I reckon. Two adults were sitting on the couch, their backs to the kitchen door I was coming in, and I immediately felt bad about them, like they were evil or something. (Sorry for using evil, I don't know what else to use.) I sat down in the living room, and about five minutes later my three-year-old came in, who hadn't seen this couple before in his life. He looked at them, came immediately to my wife and I and said, "There's two people here who aren't supposed to be here."
We get lots of visitors, or we did then, and he'd never acted like that before or since.
Like I said, I could go on and on with stories like this. Maybe not proof to anybody, but I think it's certainly evidence. You decide how strong or weak. Personally, I'm not satisfied with Richard Dawkins' argument that with 6 billion people on earth, the odds are that very unusual things will happen; things with chances like one in 6 billion. Maybe, but I'm only one, and our village is only 200, and I live in these sorts of things day in and day out.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Peter, posted 05-28-2003 7:05 AM truthlover has not replied
 Message 14 by doctrbill, posted 07-01-2003 12:21 AM truthlover has replied
 Message 16 by truthlover, posted 07-02-2003 12:39 AM truthlover has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 7 of 107 (41869)
05-31-2003 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Rrhain
05-31-2003 3:55 AM


quote:
The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.
Boy, this seems awful strict. When someone says a nation will be dispersed, then return in the latter days, and they don't have their own nation for 1870 years, but then their land is restored, that seems pretty impressive to me, even if the British were trying to fulfill the prophecy on purpose.
Of course, your other point about the "within this generation" and "some of you will still be living" is obviously a good answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 05-31-2003 3:55 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 15 of 107 (44807)
07-02-2003 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by doctrbill
07-01-2003 12:21 AM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
Do supernatural things just naturally occur? The Bible calls thunder the voice of God. Is thunder natural or supernatural?
Um...I don't know how to answer this. I can handle the thunder question. Thunder's natural.
I think supernatural things occur looking quite natural pretty regularly. I think thunder can be sent at the exact time to get a message across to a person, and then it's natural and supernatural both.
I don't understand the point of the question, though. Maybe it's obvious, but I'm not getting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by doctrbill, posted 07-01-2003 12:21 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by doctrbill, posted 07-02-2003 1:18 AM truthlover has not replied
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 16 of 107 (44808)
07-02-2003 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
05-28-2003 3:43 AM


My "practice in faith" thread got a lot of responses I wish had been here rather than there. This is sort of a thrown out continuation to thoughts on intuition and coincidence that have been brought up in various threads on evcforum.
My mom, who's visiting for a couple weeks, told me about being at work shortly before retiring last month. Her back was bothering her, and she needed to get an invoice out of the bottom drawer of her file cabinet. She told a co-worker, "We better ask God to let me put my hand right on that invoice, because if it takes too long to find, the rest of you are going to have to carry me out of this office."
She opened up the drawer, stuck her hand in the middle of the files, and she separated the files at exactly the right invoice. She commented how good God was or something, and the co-worker said, "It would be hard to top that." My mom had to match the invoice with another that was in the top drawer. She opened the drawer, and the invoice she needed was pulled up, exposed in the drawer. The co-worker said, "Well, okay, maybe that tops it."
At lunch that same day, an irate customer was on the phone, and my mom needed an invoice from that day's pile. It wasn't in order, filed or anything. She said the stack of invoices was about ten inches high. She put the customer on hold, commented to the same co-worker that she needed to find the invoice fast to get this irate customer taken care of, and would the co-worker take half the stack and help her find it. My mom cut the stack in half, and there, on top of the bottom half, was the invoice she needed. The co-worker started humming the Twilight Zone theme.
Again, I don't think any one incident proves anything, but when people turn to God, ask for help, and experience "coincidences" like this repeatedly, then maybe you don't have repeatable, testable, scientific theory, but you do begin to have something that would carry weight in a courtroom.
Okay, back to being slammed for enjoying good intervention while there's so much suffering in the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 05-28-2003 3:43 AM truthlover has not replied

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 31 of 107 (46242)
07-16-2003 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by nator
07-11-2003 10:33 AM


My first response to your "Truthlover?" was, "Huh, what? Did I miss something?"
Was it rude of me to just let Peter take over the discussion?
I'm thinking what you're waiting for a response on is this general idea:
See how easy it is to pick what situations you would like God to be responsible for and which ones you don't?
I kind of dropped it and let Peter talk, because I don't think it's that simple. Yes, if there's nothing else going on, then it is easy. Your description is perfectly accurate, and your example was ever pretty good--that is, if there's nothing else going on.
If, however, the things I feel inside, the directions I feel I'm given, are not just imagination or subjective, then it's not just picking and choosing; it just might be the guidance of God's Spirit.
I could list a thousand circumstances that I thought were the hand of God. You could work at explaining them. Some of them would be easily explainable (50-50 chance). Others would be far more unlikely, and you could say that unlikely things happen to people, just by odds. I can't calculate the odds of things happening to me. I can't judge my psychological stability when I had such an intense experience back in 1982 that I promised myself to God. Maybe I was just having an LSD flashback or something. (Actually, I didn't do anything like that often enough to be risking flashbacks, I don't think--just a statement in my own defense.)
In the end, though, I think that even taking an objective look at things--as objectively as I can muster for myself--giving myself to God looks like a really, really successful thing to do, and that the things that have happened to me have been guided by God to put me with his people and make me into someone who would help take suffering out of this world, not bring more into it.
So, I just kind of thought that me listing more events and circumstances, and you explaining them from your perspective wouldn't be real profitable, because we'd have to do that for a real, long time.
I thought I'd spare you that.
Or am I way off track in what you were asking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by nator, posted 07-11-2003 10:33 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by doctrbill, posted 07-16-2003 1:23 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 35 by nator, posted 07-16-2003 7:13 PM truthlover has replied
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 05-18-2012 4:03 AM truthlover has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 34 of 107 (46271)
07-16-2003 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by doctrbill
07-16-2003 1:23 PM


Dr. Bill,
I am aware that the things you said are true. I believe that God makes his rain to fall on the just and the unjust, and there is help inside for all who seek it, even the atheist. (Note: I am not equating the atheist and the unjust here.)
Gandhi believed that his non-violent resistance was a way that was blessed by Truth, which is powerful and active. Non-violent resistance works, he believed, not just because of its effectiveness as a means to persuade others and draw them to your cause, but because Truth is living and powerful and would work on behalf of the non-violent who stood up for Truth.
I believe there is not just God, but Truth, and that Truth was put on earth by God. Those who love justice and show mercy will find it effective and powerful to behave in such a way, because they belong to Truth and Truth supports those who walk in his ways, even if they're atheists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by doctrbill, posted 07-16-2003 1:23 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by sr, posted 07-17-2003 9:50 AM truthlover has not replied
 Message 40 by sr, posted 07-17-2003 9:51 AM truthlover has replied
 Message 45 by doctrbill, posted 07-17-2003 11:47 AM truthlover has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 36 of 107 (46292)
07-16-2003 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by nator
07-16-2003 7:13 PM


Well, let's see how this double quote works here...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could list a thousand circumstances that I thought were the hand of God. You could work at explaining them. Some of them would be easily explainable (50-50 chance).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, I think I would have better odds than that.
I meant there are things that happen that are 50/50. It could have happened one way or another way, and each one is equally probable, as in "I prayed I would win the coin toss at the start of the football game, and I did." A 50-50 prop is easily explainable for anyone. I didn't mean you had a 50/50 shot of coming up with an explanation.
When I suggested it was easy, I was thinking of a 100% shot of coming up with a reasonable explanation.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Others would be far more unlikely, and you could say that unlikely things happen to people, just by odds.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly true.
This is why I stopped. Let me explain by addressing one more quote of yours...
You began by ststing what happened to your Mom that day in the office, and saying that a lot of such occurrences add up to something significant, even so significant that it may start to be admissable in court.
I think you took that a bit further than I meant it. I mentioned the court of law, because in science something has to be repeatable to be evidence. In a court of law, however, testimony is evidence. Some really awful testimony is admissible in a court of law.
I was simply trying to point out that scientific evidence is not the only type of evidence there is. There is legal evidence, the nature of which varies a lot, and the importance of which varies a lot. I had felt that someone, maybe it was ever you, had dismissed testimony as evidence at all, and I was pointing out that testimony is evidence. I appealed to a court of law to do so.
Most people are between you and me. They're not so convinced of God that they'd drop everything and give away everything to join a group of people solely committed to serving God like I did, and they're not so doubting that God exists as you are. (Simple statistics here; not implying anything about you or me. About 8 or 10 per cent of Americans are agnostic/atheist, and many less are as radical in their religion as I am, so at least 80% of Americans lie between us.)
My thought is, I'm not going to convince you (unless God intervenes, lol). But those people between us would vary in their opinion of my testimonies and your explanations of them (and my explanations of them).
So I quit because I thought I gave enough right now. I thought you got a fair shake at answering, and I let you have the last word. I figured it would come back up at some point, and I'd give my memory some time to pick out the best stories I could come up with.
Oh, also, I was gone for five days, during which time I was also covering for a co-worker on vacation, effectively doubling my work load. I've been working my guts out, except for that five day trip, for the last two weeks.
It's not so much about the odds as it is about your selective memory. You remember the "hits" and disregard the "misses". Or, you attribute the good things or powerful things that happen to you to God's intervention and the mundane urge you had to scratch your backside you attribute to nothing at all.
Yeah, I go a lot by what I feel inside. We believe truth is known "in the inward parts," and we tend to look inside for the importance of things and the interpretation of those important things.
I don't think I disregard the misses that much. Those matter to me, too, and I tend to spend time wondering about them. Your other statement would apply more, which is that there's a lot of room for interpretation of events no matter which way they turn out.
You know what I think I'll do. I think I'll start a journal. Tonight. I'll start making notes for the all of us. It won't be very scientific, because a case study of one can't be. I would probably list things that happen to all of us here at the village, but that's even less scientific, because I definitely wouldn't have anyone else's misses.
But, at least I would have paid special attention to the "misses," which is something both you and Crash have suggested. I'll give you as honest an account of the results as I can here as a Christmas present, which will give me five months to document.
Better yet, I'll put the journal on computer, and you can have a copy when I'm done of the journal itself, besides the summation I put on this board.
In closing, I'd like to say that I think that doubt, in particular, self-doubt about what one knows is the best path to truth and true knowledge.
Well, we agree on something :-). Isn't that nice!
Actually, there's probably a lot we agree on, just some pretty major stuff we don't, lol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by nator, posted 07-16-2003 7:13 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by nator, posted 07-16-2003 11:34 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 41 of 107 (46349)
07-17-2003 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by sr
07-17-2003 9:51 AM


Thanks for the clarification. I think I followed the main gist of it, although some of the points you were making may as well have been written in Sanskrit for how well I understood them.
What I caught from Gandhi's quotes was the personal/impersonal nature of Truth. You clarified where he'd be coming from on that.
I'm not a Gandhi follower, but I thought his discussions about Truth were very similar to the way I see things. He said pretty clearly, I think, that those who were on the side of Truth would find Truth powerful to help them. That may not be the right words, but it's certainly the thought he expressed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by sr, posted 07-17-2003 9:51 AM sr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by truthlover, posted 07-17-2003 11:00 AM truthlover has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 42 of 107 (46350)
07-17-2003 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by truthlover
07-17-2003 10:56 AM


Oh, one more thing.
Your discussion of himsa/ahimsa in the Gita was really neat. I already knew that the Gita is based on an actual ancient battle that was extremely bloody, and I had read a discussion on Gandhi's interpretations of the Gita (getting non-violence from such a violent writing).
The discussion I read didn't say what you said. In fact, I don't think it was very clear in its conclusions, so I don't remember what it said. The thoughts you expressed made a lot of sense to me.
I read the Gita once, about a year ago, and I don't know that I remember one word of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by truthlover, posted 07-17-2003 10:56 AM truthlover has not replied

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4060 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 43 of 107 (46352)
07-17-2003 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by nator
07-16-2003 11:34 PM


The journal is something I thought would be a good idea. I think there's more to this whole thing than "hits and misses," although being of a pretty mathematical mind, I can understand the desire to quantify everything. Perhaps, in fact, there could be enough "hits" in difficult enough situations to make the "misses" meaningless, even if you assume as many of them as possible.
I reckon that's how most convince religious people feel, anyway. I know I do. I look at the history of my life, and what I see around me, and I think, "This is not all coincidence. No probability calculations make room for this."
Anyway, we'll see. Maybe the whole experiment will be worthless, but the journal's something I'd like to see, even if no one else saw it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by nator, posted 07-16-2003 11:34 PM nator has not replied

  
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