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Author Topic:   Evidence for the Supernatural
sr
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 107 (46359)
07-17-2003 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by truthlover
07-17-2003 11:00 AM


____________________
I already knew that the Gita is based on an actual ancient battle that was extremely bloody, and I had read a discussion on Gandhi's interpretations of the Gita (getting non-violence from such a violent writing).
____________________

Yes, you are right in your premise, as Gita is taken as a historical report and not merely as a sacred text. Gita is part of Mahabharata that is a very large narrative on historical facts.

Gita is spoken by Krishna, and Krishna is considered as an avatara of Brahman, that's to say, Krishna was an incarnation of Brahman himself and Arjuna's master (guru). Gandhi, as well as most of the Hindus schools of thought, was following his life according to Gita's teachings. Better saing, according to the inferences that he has done on Gita's instructions.

Karma (action) is one of the greatest points of that dialog between Krisha and Arjuna and himsa/ahimsa is but one of the many aspects of karma. Krishna's thesis is that karma should be surpased, as well as religion itself (dharma). And Gita's verse 18.66 (sarva dharma paritiaja...) is taken by all schools as Gita's final conclusion on karma and dharma.

In fact Gandhi was seeking after a balance between violence and non-violence, as the British raj in India was a quite violent period for India, where dharma was disturbed by the strong barbarism of the so-called Western civilisation. So, Gandhi has offered ahimsa to that himsa and he finaly could get the fruits. Like all karmic fruits, these were bad and good, sweet and sour, because karma itself is always dual. So, Gandhi could get independence and division, victory and murder, freedrom and more poverty, as karma can only generate more karma...


This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 806 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 47 of 107 (46360)
07-17-2003 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Peter
07-17-2003 4:42 AM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
quote:
It's the 'modern science' part that I disagree with.
It implies that we already know everything there is to know about
the workigns of the universe, and that everything can be explained
by what we already know.
By modern science I mean the state of science today. No scientist in his/her right mind would suggest that we already know everything there is to be known.
quote:
I was more thinking in terms of so-called practitioners than
mainstream religous beleivers.
That clears it up then. As a former believer, I am well aware of the post hypnotic directives against trying to explain "the mysteries of God."

db

------------------
"If God created Nature, then the Law of Nature is the Law of God."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Peter, posted 07-17-2003 4:42 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
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sr
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 107 (46364)
07-17-2003 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by doctrbill
07-17-2003 11:40 AM


___________________________
I find all three understandings of the term (God) revealed in the Bible
___________________________

Yes, you are employing the understanding of god given by that scripture, that is the understanding of a religion's god. A dual being who makes a fragile creation and is trying to manage it.

But there are some other understandings on god and according to them, that supreme being is a non-dual substance who is far beyond futile things like to create and to manage material worlds like ours.

That supreme being is the ultimate reality itself and he is the four stages of consciousnes, beyond the three phases of time (present, past, and future) and existing at the ether of of everyone's heart.

That Absolute Truth cannot be attained by any sort of religion or creed as he is already there at the soul and eternaly that soul himself.

Many are seeking after that Soul of soul, trying to reach that Self of self whose understanding is not revealed by texts like Bible...


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Peter
Member (Idle past 1965 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 49 of 107 (46398)
07-18-2003 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by doctrbill
07-17-2003 11:56 AM


Re: Natural/Supernatural
quote:

By modern science I mean the state of science today. No scientist in his/her right mind would suggest that we already know everything there is to be known.

That's all I mean to object to ... I think there are likely
some aspects of the universe that current scientific knowledge
cannot cover, but that future discoveries, techniques, and theories
will open these 'supernatural' phenomena to us.

I think we probably agree ... just got tangled up in a slight
mis-understanding over the words used to express it.


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Pogo
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 107 (46920)
07-22-2003 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by doctrbill
07-16-2003 1:23 PM


Everytime I come here, I learn something new; that is a very good thing!
DoctorBill, you have put into words what I have never heard anybody say. As a former believer, I was led away by actually reading the bible and discovering that I could not take it literally; unless I wanted to throw out everything I knew about science. However, what were those experiences that I attributed to God? I believe that there are rational explanations for most if not all; it sure felt like I was 'baptized in the Holy Spirit' when it happened...
I'll say this; I am now not sure of anything now, but I refuse to abandon common sense, totally suspend disbelief and/or stop thinking for myself.
Maybe the bible is a way to lead us to the "Truth", and is not to be taken literally; maybe our minds rationalize our actions (or beliefs) after the event happens.

Perhaps the greatest evidence of the supernatural would be if the biblical god were to manifest himself (herself) to the world, to scientists and to historians.
That would pretty much solve everything.


This message is a reply to:
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 806 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 51 of 107 (46990)
07-23-2003 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Pogo
07-22-2003 5:38 PM


Pogo wrote:
quote:
DoctorBill, you have put into words what I have never heard anybody say.
Thank you. It is good to know that there are others out there, like yourself, who have had similar experiences.
quote:
Perhaps the greatest evidence of the supernatural would be if the biblical god were to manifest himself (herself) to the world, to scientists and to historians.
That would pretty much solve everything.
An interesting thought. I'm not sure how that would play out.

On the subject of supernatural things, you may find these thoughts interesting.

http://www.sun-day-school.us/heaven-and-nature.htm

Hang in there Pogo. I really envy the handle. You must have gotten it years ago, eh?

db

------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 107 (650145)
01-28-2012 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rrhain
06-04-2003 4:04 AM


Observable Evidence Of The Supernatural

Rrhain writes:


Um, no. The Jews were not dispersed worldwide and they did not return in the latter days. It would take over a thousand years before Jews made it across the ocean and the creation of Israel is hardly an example of prophecy being fulfilled since it was created at the hands of the British.

The timeline of the global dispersal is irrelevant. What is prophetically relevant is that Israel became occupied by Gentile nations, remaining so as a wasteland for over nineteen centuries.

Rrhain writes:

That's not dispersal. That's emigration. The two are not the same.

Call it what you want. They eventually became globally dispersed to the nations, including the then undiscovered West, as so many prophets including OT and Jesus prophesied.

The scientific evidence of the reliability of the Biblical record has become observable.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6603
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 53 of 107 (650153)
01-28-2012 10:33 AM


The last post in this thread before you zombied it Buzz, was 2003.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Phat
Member
Posts: 12025
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 54 of 107 (650159)
01-28-2012 11:14 AM


Scoffers will have their way
Truthlover,in message#1 writes:

I told some people on this web site that I've seen evidence for the supernatural. Not necessarily repeatable, testable evidence, but certainly court room type evidence, where you listen to witnesses.

I too have been a witness to unexplained phenomenon in my own apartment. I'll not bother to talk about it though...its time to let the scoffers have their world. Once they become victims of human nature unleashed..once the world becomes so competitive that people will fight for position, once the secular humanists find out that logic, reason, and reality dont lead to altruism through human will alone....then and only then will people seek God. They will, sadly, create their own humanist version....I hope they can share what little wealth remains on this planet.
Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5900
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 55 of 107 (650165)
01-28-2012 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
01-28-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Scoffers will have their way
I too have been a witness to unexplained phenomenon in my own apartment. I'll not bother to talk about it though...its time to let the scoffers have their world. Once they become victims of human nature unleashed..once the world becomes so competitive that people will fight for position, once the secular humanists find out that logic, reason, and reality dont lead to altruism through human will alone....then and only then will people seek God. They will, sadly, create their own humanist version....I hope they can share what little wealth remains on this planet.

WTF??
Maybe you need to take a look at your avatar.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 107 (650166)
01-28-2012 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
01-28-2012 8:01 AM


Re: Observable Evidence Of The Supernatural
Chapter and Verse Buz. Please give us the Chapter and Verse for your alleged prophecies.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 146 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 57 of 107 (650167)
01-28-2012 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
01-28-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Scoffers will have their way
I too have been a witness to unexplained phenomenon in my own apartment.

Everybody has, or just about everybody. But unexplained does not mean 'supernatural'. The rest of your post would lead us off topic very quickly.

its time to let the scoffers have their world.

I think skeptic is the preferred term and as a general rule, we're perfectly happy to share it with the credulous.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 01-28-2012 11:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 58 of 107 (650177)
01-28-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
01-28-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Debating Skeptics
Phat writes:

I too have been a witness to unexplained phenomenon in my own apartment. I'll not bother to talk about it though...its time to let the scoffers have their world. Once they become victims of human nature unleashed..once the world becomes so competitive that people will fight for position, once the secular humanists find out that logic, reason, and reality dont lead to altruism through human will alone....then and only then will people seek God. They will, sadly, create their own humanist version....I hope they can share what little wealth remains on this planet.

Phat, my friend, like Truthlover admitted, personal evidence doesn't cut it for scientific evidence. I've had, over my 60 plus years as spiritual born Christian, enough personal experience to write a book and to empirically prove to me that the Biblical record is reliable and that the Biblical god, Jehovah exists. I do expect anyone other than myself to apply that as scientific evidence that Jehovah exists.

I must be able to cite physical observable phenomena in order to debate evidence of the supernatural. This I do, knowing full well, that most will go to any length in denying the fact, so as to consider themselves unaccountable to a higher power.

Any objectively honest person cannot deny many fulfilled corroborative, observable fulfilled prophecies cited by me as evidence supportive to the existence of a higher intelligence than we experience on our itty bitty planet in the unsearchably (self explanitory Buzism adjective) immense and unsearchably complex Universe.

Edited by Buzsaw, : eliminate a word for clarity

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 59 of 107 (650178)
01-28-2012 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Buzsaw
01-28-2012 8:01 AM


Re: Observable Evidence Of The Supernatural
What is prophetically relevant is that Israel became occupied by Gentile nations, remaining so as a wasteland for over nineteen centuries.

Um, there actually was a burgeoning civilization in Israel between the fall of the nation of Israel and its recreation at the hands of the British; the people of that civilization are called "Palestinians":

Hardly a "wasteland." Actually, it had always been a fertile and productive land over those 19 centuries of the Jews not having stolen it yet.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 107 (650179)
01-28-2012 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Tangle
01-28-2012 10:33 AM


Re: Oldie Thread
Tangle writes:

The last post in this thread before you zombied it Buzz, was 2003.

That's right, Tangle. The reason I decided to bump this thead forward is that over the past 9 years I've learned a lot as to what is factual, what is scientifically observable and what is acceptable for effective debate here at EvC.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Tangle, posted 01-28-2012 10:33 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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