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Author Topic:   EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed - Science Under Attack
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 151 of 438 (463765)
04-19-2008 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2008 3:12 PM


Dr Adequate responds to randman:

quote:
quote:
Eugenics was definitely influenced by Darwinism and played a significant role in Hitler and NAZI thinking. To deny this is silly.

And yet, strangely, true, or you would be able to argue against it rather than just calling it "silly".


There's a common question in introductory biology classes regarding the feasibility of eugenics.

Suppose there is a recessive trait.
Suppose that the homozygous recessive rate is 1 in 1,000.
Suppose that those who are homozygous recessive never reproduce.

How many generations would it take to have the appearance of homozygous recessive go from 1 in 1,000 to 1 in 1,000,000?

Directed breeding can do amazing things, but it takes too long to do anything real.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2008 3:12 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 152 of 438 (463766)
04-19-2008 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by randman
04-18-2008 7:22 PM


randman writes:

quote:
my point on amorality is that there are no absolute morals for Darwinism.

That's because Darwinism is a piece of science, not philosophy.

quote:
Absent of God, man makes up his own morals as he sees fit, and if he thinks it's fit to artificially select humanity's progress, who is to say he is wrong?

Two problems:

1) The direct answer is "man." Just because we're the ones making the rules doesn't mean the rules don't exist.

We're back to the Monopoly example. Monopoly is a completely man-made game. And yet, there are rules. You break them, you get punished. There are even "house rules." A common one is that all the money players have to pay when they draw a bad Chance or Community Chest card are placed under Free Parking. When you land on it, you get whatever money is there.

This rule has become so popular that it is now published in the official game as a variant.

Rules are rules no matter where they come from.

2) Nobody is an absolutist. Not even god. God breaks his own rules all the time. Christians certainly don't obey the rules laid out in the Bible.

"Absolute morality" is a fiction nobody engages in. Everyone is a relativist.

quote:
I don't think it takes a genius to see how the Nazis drew inspiration from Darwinism.

Of course. But if you're going to claim that evolution is evil because of what the Nazis did, then you're going to have also claim that Christianity is evil because of what the Crusaders did.

See...there's that relativism coming up again....


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by randman, posted 04-18-2008 7:22 PM randman has not yet responded

  
platypus
Member (Idle past 3827 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 153 of 438 (463780)
04-20-2008 1:50 AM


who's the interviewer?
Hey everyone,

I haven't been around for a while, but I just had to hear what people had to say about this film.

To add to the discussion, I new addition was added to this link since it was last posted some time ago: http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,2477,n,n

quote:
In turns out The Killers were duped into having their music and they are mad about it.

Here's the message from their board:

"I just spoke to the band's manager, and adding to the confusion was the fact that they did authorize a project months ago with this request:

Quote:
'The film is a satirical documentary with an estimated running time of 1 hour and 50 minutes, exploring academic freedom in public schools and government institutions with actor, comedian, economist, Ben Stein as the spokesperson.'

What they authorized was a documentary about 'academic freedom in schools', not the film that the producers produced.

They contacted the producers of the film to ask that the song be removed but it is too late. Unfortunately it was misrepresented to them when the request came through to use it. Add this band to a long line of people who were misled by the producers of this film."


Apparently the makers of this film are really trying to piss off everyone associated in any way with this film, with all the copyright infringements. Is this possibly a ploy to generate more publicity?

I refuse to see this movie on principle (don't want to give them money), but I am curious about it. Has anyone seen it? Is Ben Stein actually interviewing all the scientists involved? I know earlier many scientists complained about being lied to about the intent of the movie. Were they interviewed by Ben Stein himself, or does he just interject snide remarks in the back ground while someone else conducts the interview? Did the scientist maybe think something was up when Ben Stein showed up on the door to conduct the interview for a supposedly lowly documentary?

Anyone have more info on this story?


You hear evolutionist says we are descedant from apes and monkees. Sure, but that's not the point. All of life is related, not just human's with monkees. If you hug a tree, you're hugging a relative, a very distant relative, but a relative nonetheless." Dr. Joan Roughgarden in Evolution and Christian Faith
Replies to this message:
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QED99
Junior Member (Idle past 3771 days)
Posts: 4
From: Kansas City, MO
Joined: 04-20-2008


Message 154 of 438 (463782)
04-20-2008 2:24 AM


Expelled in the looking-glass
Expelled claims as its central theme that scientists' lives and reputations were harmed by unfair discrimination or exclusion. Although these claims are thoroughly refuted at ExpelledExposed.com, a somewhat alternate reality is seen at www.sunclipse.org/?p=626, where "expelled" means death threats and physical bodily harm to those opposing ID.

Edited by QED99, : No reason given.


  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 155 of 438 (463788)
04-20-2008 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by platypus
04-20-2008 1:50 AM


Re: who's the interviewer?
Is Ben Stein actually interviewing all the scientists involved?

quote:
Some, like Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer, were interviewed by the host of the film, Ben Stein. Other scientists, such as Eugenie Scott and P. Z. Myers, were interviewed by Mathis and other production crew.

Expelled Exposed


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 438 (463792)
04-20-2008 11:36 AM


I saw the movie
You can color me "not impressed".

A lot of the attacks against the movie are a little overboard. I don't remember the movie explicitly saying that evolution caused Nazism.

All the movie did was try to attack Darwinism in the light that the Darwinists are snuffing out the competition. They didn't even touch on the fact that the problem Darwinists have with ID is that it is unscientific and shouldn't be considered science. They tried to make it look like the Darwinists were snuffing out the competition for political and moral reasons.

Also, there was no positive evidence for ID provided.

The movie didn't do anything for me except for lose some credibility for the ID folk.

Ben Stein is a funny little smart ass though :)


Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 157 of 438 (463799)
04-20-2008 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by New Cat's Eye
04-20-2008 11:36 AM


Re: I saw the movie
So you would disagree with the reviews that characterized it as poorly made and tiresome?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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platypus
Member (Idle past 3827 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 158 of 438 (463809)
04-20-2008 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
04-20-2008 2:38 PM


Re: I saw the movie
Speaking of reviews, here's a list of the reviews that this movie has gotten so far:

9% http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/expelled_no_intelligence_allowed/
0.5/4 http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/movies/17856474.html
2.5/5 reader reviews http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/04/18/movies/18expe.html?ref=movies
0/4 http://www.slantmagazine.com/film/film_review.asp?ID=3606
2/4 http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/movies/ny-etret5652630apr18,0,6830898.story

On google reviews as of 4/17
2.5/4 http://www.tvguide.com/movies/expelled-intelligence-allowed/review/293361
F http://www.eonline.com/movies/e_reviews/index.jsp?movieuuid=be0b6dbb-f9f5-4bf8-8d8b-f5dd83e2b7a7
2/4 http://www.nypost.com/seven/04172008/entertainment/movies/creative_writhing_106936.htm

On google reviews as of 4/20
4/5 http://www.epinions.com/content_426757688964
5/5 http://www.epinions.com/content_426753756804
5/5 http://www.epinions.com/content_426798780036

Interesting, the diversity of opinions on the film credentials of this movie. How often do rating on a film's quality go from 0/5 to 5/5? Perhaps some of these reviews are a bit biased, in both direction, evaluating content and not just film quality.

Also, I only included reviews with a rating attached, there are plenty of raving and scathing reviews that don't give us a rating, too many to list, in fact. Here's two I found most interesting from a religious website that was very critical of the film:
http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2008/04/beliefnet-expel.html

Also interesting, a google search on the movies showtime only turned up 3 negative reviews on Friday, but after a lot of internet hubbub about the bad reviews that the film was getting, 3 more reviews popped up on google this morning (I have been checking constantly this weekend). All three raving reviews came from the same website, epinions.


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 438 (463836)
04-21-2008 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Percy
04-20-2008 2:38 PM


Re: I saw the movie
So you would disagree with the reviews that characterized it as poorly made and tiresome?

No, it was poorly made and tiresome in the sense that all they did was attack evolution instead of promoting ID, and their arguments were lacking.

But I wouldn't say that the movie was made poorly in the sense that it wasn't put together and edited well. Also, watching the movie didn't actually make me tired or annoy me, really. It was tiresome in that it seemed to be a big strawman argument, but it was still somewhat entertaining. I thought Ben Stein was funny.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Percy, posted 04-20-2008 2:38 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 715 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 160 of 438 (463853)
04-21-2008 12:41 PM


$$$ on opening weekend
Not so good.

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/04/expelled_flops_at_box_office.php#more

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Ben_Stein_shows_hes_no_Michael_0420.html

It seems they managed only 1.2M Friday and the weekend box office is projected to be 3.4M.

And remember, they've spent millions to make this movie and millions more to market it. According to a commenter on John Lynch's blog who attended a screening and got to hear the Expelled producers answer questions, they considered a successful opening weekend to be 2 million tickets sold; they didn't even come close.

They've gotta have $10 million into this, bare minimum.

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 177 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 161 of 438 (463861)
04-21-2008 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by molbiogirl
04-21-2008 12:41 PM


Re: $$$ on opening weekend
The average price of a ticket is $6.82 and each cinema made on average $3,000 which I estimate to mean about 440 people per day per cinema:- A grand total of approximately 462,000 tickets sold on the opening weekend.

Not bad for a documentary, but there is a reason most people don't spend a lot of money on making documentaries.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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platypus
Member (Idle past 3827 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 11-12-2006


Message 162 of 438 (463928)
04-22-2008 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by molbiogirl
04-21-2008 12:41 PM


Re: $$$ on opening weekend
They've gotta have $10 million into this, bare minimum.

That is, if they're not funded by the Discovery Institute, in which case a loss of a couple million $$ is no big deal to get a little nation-wide publicity.

I don't think there is any definite proof of this financial connection, but there is this interesting bit from the DI's Wedge Document on Expelled Exposed about the second phase of their wedge strategy:

…production of a … documentary on intelligent design and its implications…. Alongside a focus on influential opinion-makers, we also seek to build up a popular base of support among our natural constituency, namely, Christians.

This message is a reply to:
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Deftil
Member (Idle past 2528 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 163 of 438 (464150)
04-23-2008 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by randman
04-18-2008 3:38 PM


Personally, I don't recall having any urges to exterminate the Jews when I accepted the truth of evolution.

Maybe I'm not doing it right.

Genocide was around long before Darwin and his theory so I don't see how you can attribute NAZIism to evolution in any way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by randman, posted 04-18-2008 3:38 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 164 of 438 (464153)
04-23-2008 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Deftil
04-23-2008 5:57 PM


Hmmm.....I suspect if I made a similar comment, I would be banned.

But for sake of argument, can you point out where I suggested such a thing?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Deftil
Member (Idle past 2528 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 165 of 438 (464159)
04-23-2008 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by randman
04-23-2008 6:03 PM


Perhaps I misinterpreted you when you said:

randman writes:

Eugenics was definitely influenced by Darwinism and played a significant role in Hitler and NAZI thinking. To deny this is silly.

but that seems to say that some of the blame for the NAZI movement falls on Darwin and the theory of natural selection.

The first part of my previous post was something of a parody of that belief, but the point was that there isn't any natural connection between Darwinism and genocide.

Edited by Deftil, : No reason given.


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