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Author Topic:   Equating science with faith
Rahvin
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Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 315 of 326 (464413)
04-25-2008 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by 1071
04-25-2008 12:39 PM


Percy...indeed i agree.. That is why I said that this is what "I believe"...
That doesn't make sense. You agree that evolution is science but don't believe evolution is science?
Like I said.. Just answering the thread.. I think that SCIENCE is not faith based. but.. I do not agree that Evolution IS science.
Why? You haven't given a reason. You've made a bare assertion. Your opinion means less than nothing.
nor do I believe that all modern biology is based on it. (pretty bold claim there)
Damned near everything in modern Biology ties directly to evolution. If evolution were disproved tomorrow, it would be a scientific cateclysm on the level of disproving tectonic plate theory or the theory of gravity, becasue all have proven to be similarly accurate.
all this in my opinion
You seem to be working under the elementary-school nonsense position that all opinions are equally valid and cannot be wrong.
Your opinion is factually incorrect. The Theory of Evolution is based on evidence. This means it is not based on faith. By ignoring that evidence and claiming that you still "believe" evolution is based on faith (without giving any sort of reason), you aren't participating in an honest debate - you're arguing like a stubborn child.
antiLIE: Science isn't based on faith, but evolution is and so evolution is not science.
Everybody else: ...but here's the evidence evolution is based on. Even if you don't agree with the evidence, it's obviously not based on faith.
antiLIE: Yeah, but in my opinion it's still based on faith.
Everybody else: Why do you say that? We just gave you some of the evidence. How can you claim evolution is not based on evidence when we just gave you the evidence it's based on?
antiLIE: It's my opinion.
So, would you care to provide the reason you think evolution is based on faith, despite the fact that several times in this thread we have provided bits of the evidence evolution is based on? Becasue if you simply have an opinion with no rational reason to make your claim, your argument is null.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by 1071, posted 04-25-2008 12:39 PM 1071 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by 1071, posted 04-25-2008 1:29 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 317 of 326 (464423)
04-25-2008 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by 1071
04-25-2008 1:29 PM


The Scientific Evidence that the general theory of Evolution is based on is not faith based. The conclusion come to about the evidence by Naturalists is what I consider faith based. Not the Evidence.
I don't understand. You agree that evolution is based on evidence, which means evolution is not based on faith. But then you say that the "conclusion" is based on faith.
So if someone doesn't agree with your interpretation of evidence, their conclusions are based on faith?
The definition of faith, once again, is a belief bot based on evidence. You agree that evolution is based on evidence, though you disagree with the interpretation of that evidence.
While your disagreement itself is a topic for a different thread, how can you rationally say that a conclusion based on evidence is based on faith when faith is defined as a belief not based on evidence? Your statement is contradictory.
That is like saying.. "I believe there are fossils when there are no fossils" This is not what I am saying at all.
It most certainly sounds like it. Your statement boils down to "Evolution is based on evidence, not faith, but I believe evolution is still based on faith. That's my opinion."
It doesn't make sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by 1071, posted 04-25-2008 1:29 PM 1071 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by 1071, posted 04-25-2008 2:11 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 321 of 326 (464437)
04-25-2008 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by 1071
04-25-2008 2:11 PM


Creation is based on evidence as well. (other than the Bible) but when you look at the evidence, do you not disagree with the "conclusion" come to by creationists?
It's not even a matter of disagreeing with their conclusions - I've never seen any objective evidence proposed in favor of Creationism. I'd very much appreciate it if you started another thread if you actually have some.
I have seem a great many arguments that purport to show how Creationism is based on evidence, but when it came down to it, the Creationists reverted to quoting the Bible rather than following evidence. Their arguemnts typically consisted of arguments from ignorance, drastic leaps in logic, and outright falsehoods based entirely on their interpretation of the Bible rather than any objective examination of observable evidence.
But then, even if someone examines evidence and says "this evidence supports Creationisn," then that person is not basing their belief on faith (assuming their interpretation of the evidence is not also based solely on their interpretation of the Bible). That person's beliefs would in fact be based on evidence and not faith...they would simply be wrong.
I don't claim that everyone I disagree with is basing their opinions on faith. I make that claim only when a person fails to support their position with evidence. In cases of disagreement where both sides back up their assertions with objective evidence, one or both parties are simply wrong to varying degrees in their interpretation.
Again, faith is a belief not based on evidence. That doesn't mean that all beliefs that are not based on faith are correct. Neither does it mean that all incorrect beliefs are based on faith. This may in fact be the root cause for people who equate science and faith - they see that science is considered "correct" becasue it is based on evidence, while faith is considered "wrong" becasue it is not, and they seek to equate the two so that faith can be "correct." But science isn't really about "correct vs incorrect." It's about accuracy.
The same applies here.. The evidence is there.. it is real, but the interpretations of what it means is based on ones faith in their world view. I see something different than you when I look at the same evidence you have for evolution.
Which means that one of us in incorrect in our interpretation of that evidence, but neither of our beliefs are based on faith...unless your interpretation of the evidence is defined not by the evidence alone but rather by your interpretation of a religious text.
The "world view" of the scientist is not based on faith, either antiLIE. Naturalistic explanations with a high degree of accuracy have been found for nearly every phenomenon we have encountered. It is a reasonable logical inference from that fact to say that it is likely that naturalistic explanations exist for other phenomenon. If a naturalistic explanation is found for an observed process, and the explanation makes specific, solid predictions that have an incredibly high degree of accuracy, then using the naturalistic explanation does not involve faith. We've been over this point before in this thread - naturalism is not based on faith, but rather is based on the fact that so far naturalism has worked, and we have determined naturalistic models of reality that function with a very high degree of accuracy.
The "world view" of the Creationist, however, is not based on a history of accuracy. It's based on the unfounded belief that an old set of books is literally true. Nearly all of its predictions (a global flood, all of Exodus, 6-day Creation, a young Earth) have been soundly disproven, some of them long before Darwin was ever on the scene (no age for the Earth younger than millions of years has been seriously considered since over a century before Darwin was born). This is a belief based on faith.
Now, if you and I were to examine a corpse, observe a wound, and disagree over whether the wound was caused by a gunshot or a knife, neither conclusion would be based on faith - they are conclusions based on the evidence.
But if we find a bullet inside of the wound, the shape of the wound is consistent with a gunshot, there is no knife present, and there is a man with a still smoking gun standing in the next room being arested by the police who admits to shooting him, and you still insist that the wound was caused by a knife becasue you have a book that says all wounds found on murder victims are the result of a stabbing...your position is no longer supported by any objective evidence, and instead is based on your subjective faith in your book.
This is analogous to evolution. If the evidence works to a high degree of accuracy for both Creationism and evolution, then one or both of us are simply wrong and neither belief is based on faith. But if evolution makes highly accurate predictions and Creationism does not, continued insistence that Creationism is correct becasue of your Biblical worldview is a belief based on faith, as your "interpretation of the evidence" has gone beyond "wrong" and into the realm of blind faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by 1071, posted 04-25-2008 2:11 PM 1071 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by 1071, posted 04-25-2008 3:16 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 323 of 326 (464447)
04-25-2008 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by 1071
04-25-2008 3:16 PM


wow... seriously. you make a great case Rahvin. You analagies are great. The gun knife thing.. very well done. I really apreciate your rebuttle because it is not blasting me nor falling victim to any fallacies in the art of debate.
Thank you. And I apologize as it seems you've taken some of my posts to be "blasting you." I don't intend to insult people directly when I post, but I also don't take pains to avoid it, so I apologize for unintentional offense. Any venom I convey is directed towards the argument my opponent is making (though there are admittedly a few people who make me...cranky).
Of course I do not agree with some of it. but that is not the point... Well done. [not being sarcastic]
With what do you disagree, and why?
Again, I'm not trying to be insulting, but simply saying "I disagree" without providing the reason you disagree is not debate. If you say "the sky is blue" and I respond "I disagree," you're likely to think I'm nuts, or at the very least wrong...even if I'm simply in a timezone where the sun is setting and the sky is actually pink.
Currently, we have established a large pile of examples of the evidence upon which evolution is based. We've agreed that science is based on evidence and not faith, and we've now gone over why "naturalistic worldviews" are not related to faith.
What exactly are you disagreeing with? More importaintly, what is your reason to disagree, as opinion with no rational explanation is nothing more than a bare assertion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by 1071, posted 04-25-2008 3:16 PM 1071 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by 1071, posted 04-25-2008 4:32 PM Rahvin has not replied

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