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Author Topic:   Rapid Evolution in Lizards
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 6 of 57 (464305)
04-24-2008 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by molbiogirl
04-24-2008 4:14 AM


Re-New Critter
Hi molbiogirl,
molbiogirl writes:
Body part + body part + ... = new critter.
Did the critter cease to be a lizard?
I was under the impression it was still a lizard.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by molbiogirl, posted 04-24-2008 4:14 AM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by molbiogirl, posted 04-24-2008 6:22 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 9 by NosyNed, posted 04-24-2008 6:42 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 12 of 57 (464318)
04-24-2008 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by molbiogirl
04-24-2008 6:22 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi molbiogirl,
molbiogirl writes:
Are you suggesting that there is only one lizard kind?
I was not suggesting anything. I was just pointing out that although the lizard had changed quite a bit he was still a lizard.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by molbiogirl, posted 04-24-2008 6:22 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by molbiogirl, posted 04-24-2008 7:22 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 14 by Blue Jay, posted 04-24-2008 7:23 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 48 by DC85, posted 02-13-2010 9:01 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 49 by Flatland, posted 02-16-2010 1:39 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 16 of 57 (464341)
04-24-2008 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Blue Jay
04-24-2008 7:23 PM


Re: Re-Lizard
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
Read this summary, which molbiogirl provided in the OP: it's title is "Still just a lizard," and it addresses your very concern. It's pretty much written just for you.
I did read it and about 250 posts to it.
Bluejay writes:
The lizards changed a lot, ICANT:
They didn't change too much because: Here
DNA analysis confirmed that the Pod Mrcaru lizards were genetically identical to the source population on Pod Kopiste.
They were still genetically the same as the ones they had left in 1971.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Blue Jay, posted 04-24-2008 7:23 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by molbiogirl, posted 04-24-2008 11:03 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 18 by teen4christ, posted 04-25-2008 12:30 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 20 of 57 (464414)
04-25-2008 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by teen4christ
04-25-2008 12:30 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi t4c
teen4christ writes:
ICANT, despite our discussion about this for months now, you still don't know what evolution actually says. Somehow, you keep going back to the same misconceptions you had earlier.
Would you please explain my misconception about what I commented on.
I said the lizard had changed quite a bit. (Evolution)
I put forth evidence presented by a scientist that DNA had been tested on the lizards on both islands 6 times in three years and that they were both genetically the same.
So the lizard was genetically the same as his ancestor but his diet had caused some changes in his physical makeup. (Evolution)
It had not caused any changes in his being a lizard.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by teen4christ, posted 04-25-2008 12:30 PM teen4christ has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Blue Jay, posted 04-25-2008 1:34 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 24 by molbiogirl, posted 04-25-2008 2:27 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 21 of 57 (464417)
04-25-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
04-25-2008 12:48 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes:
He's just gonna say that that is micro- not macro-
I don't have to say anything the articles have already said it.
The DNA was the same, the diet had brought about a change.
The title of the article said he was still a lizard.
So what do I have to say.
Did the lizard evolve to survive in his new home? Yes.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2008 12:48 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2008 2:35 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 23 of 57 (464425)
04-25-2008 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Blue Jay
04-25-2008 1:34 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi jay,
Bluejay writes:
And, the lizards are not genetically identical.
I am not giving my opinion.
quote:
DNA analysis confirmed that the Pod Mrcaru lizards were genetically identical to the source population on Pod Kopiste.
You can find the article Here.
The article says they are identical genetically.
It also says they are different as one has bigger heads and stronger jaws and has some help in the digestive system.
That means they are physically different.
Or am I not understanding what is written?
If you have found different evidence I would appreciate being able to read it.
Bluejay writes:
The researchers did not compare the entire genome,
I can't find this statement. Could you be so kind as to point it out.
Take into consideration all I know about this is what I am able to read.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Blue Jay, posted 04-25-2008 1:34 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Blue Jay, posted 04-25-2008 2:29 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 27 of 57 (464452)
04-25-2008 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by molbiogirl
04-25-2008 2:27 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi molbiogirl,
molbiogirl writes:
You made a bare assertion.
Until you give the reference for your information you are the one making the bare assertion.
In message #16 which t4c was responding I said:
They didn't change too much because: Here
DNA analysis confirmed that the Pod Mrcaru lizards were genetically identical to the source population on Pod Kopiste.
Would you please explain how my statement to t4c was a bare assertion when he was replying to the above message. Message 16
I know this is your field of study and you may have access to information I don't but I do not find where mitochondrial DNA analyses was mentioned. Please explain.
What does the picture of the two lizards you have to do with the two lizard populations under discussion have? Please explain.
molbiogirl writes:
Do you agree that speciation is "macroevolution"?
Speciation within a species is not macroevolution as RAZD pointed out to me that they are the same thing. If they are the same thing then there is no macroevolution.
Creos look at macroevolution as transmutation or when one critter becomes a totaly different critter. That would be the point that the lizard ceases to be a lizard and becomes something totaly different. To my knowledge this has never been documented, and no evidence presented in favor of such an event. It must be accepted by faith that all the little changes over a long period of time can accumulate to the point that it has to take place.
Quote from Here says there is no firsthand accounts.
quote:
It is not necessarily easy to "see" macroevolutionary history; there are no firsthand accounts to be read.
molbiogirl writes:
This population, given enough time, will accumulate more and more specialized body parts that no other member of its genus or family has.
Do you know this for a fact? Then could you give evidence for such as these lizards only adapted to their environment.
But since they have adapted so well what would cause them to need to accumulate more body parts as there is no need for them?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by molbiogirl, posted 04-25-2008 2:27 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by molbiogirl, posted 04-25-2008 6:11 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 50 by Flatland, posted 02-16-2010 1:42 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2010 9:57 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 28 of 57 (464453)
04-25-2008 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
04-25-2008 2:35 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes:
Yup, it certainly is a great example of macroevolution!
Would you please give a definition for macroevolution?
Then I will see if I could agree that your definition said this change was macroevolution.
According to my definition of macroevolution = one critter becoming another totaly different critter. It is not macroevolution.
I am not even sure if it is evolution rather than adaptation to the environment.
I am sure it will be discussed much in the coming weeks and months and eventually we will have an answer to all our questions.
God Bless,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2008 2:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2008 4:57 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 29 of 57 (464454)
04-25-2008 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Blue Jay
04-25-2008 2:29 PM


Re-Lizard
Thanks jay,
Is there somewhere I can read the paper?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Blue Jay, posted 04-25-2008 2:29 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by molbiogirl, posted 04-25-2008 6:18 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 31 of 57 (464461)
04-25-2008 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
04-25-2008 4:57 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes:
Why don't we discuss what the ToE considers macroevolution to be instead of your (personal) definition?
That has already been tried on a couple of threads and it did not work.
Give me your definition and I will see if I can agree that is what happened to the lizards.
BTW you can give what you think the ToE version is.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2008 4:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by molbiogirl, posted 04-25-2008 6:15 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2008 6:34 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 37 of 57 (464479)
04-25-2008 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
04-25-2008 6:34 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes:
I don't distinguish between micro and macro. Evolutions is evolution.
I can agree with that.
Catholic Scientist writes:
And I think this was the problem in those couple of other threads....
The one that was most intersting was between two evolutionist, Elmer and RAZD. I got in and exchanged a few messages with RAZD in it at the end, you can find the thread Here

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-25-2008 6:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-26-2008 12:51 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 38 of 57 (464480)
04-25-2008 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by molbiogirl
04-25-2008 6:18 PM


Re-Lizard
Hi molbiogirl,
Thank you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by molbiogirl, posted 04-25-2008 6:18 PM molbiogirl has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 52 of 57 (547843)
02-23-2010 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by RAZD
02-16-2010 9:57 PM


Re: Macro evolution
Hi RAZD,
RAZD writes:
And real world evolution predicts that you will never see this "transformation" occur, no matter how long you wait. In fact, seeing such an instance would tend to disprove evolution than validate it.
There is no evidence therefore it has to be believed by faith according to what you said in a conversation about common descent.
RAZD writes:
When you get down to the theory of common descent extending back to a primal common ancestor population, then yes, there is a degree of "faith" to believe it, because it is a prediction of the theory and has not been validated (nor invalidated) to date.
This can be found here. Message 167
In another thread I asked when this had been validated.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2010 9:57 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Nuggin, posted 02-23-2010 11:20 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 54 of 57 (547876)
02-23-2010 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Nuggin
02-23-2010 11:20 AM


Re: Macro evolution
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes:
Well, Icant, you ask an awful lot of things. However, when presented with evidence which contradicts your claims you simply run away.
I do have obligations in real life that is much more important than posting on EvC.
So I don't run away, I am still here.
Nuggin writes:
It's dishonest and immature on your part.
It is dishonest for me to spend time here if I am not taking care of my obligations for which I am paid.
Nuggin writes:
Frankly, I'm offended that you have the balls to continue asking questions.
You really think it bothers me if you are offended at me asking questions?
Nuggin writes:
What exactly is your end game?
The game of life.
Nuggin writes:
You know you are lying.
I'm glad you can read my mind.
Nuggin writes:
We know you are lying.
You got a mouse in your pocket?
You said we so I assume you include yourself that you believe I am lying.
Since you asserted that I am lying I would like for you to point out exactly what I was lying about in Message 52
Did RAZD say in Message 167:
quote:
When you get down to the theory of common descent extending back to a primal common ancestor population, then yes, there is a degree of "faith" to believe it, because it is a prediction of the theory and has not been validated (nor invalidated) to date.
Did I ask in Message 42:
ICANT writes:
When was the theory of common descent extending back to a primal common ancestor population validated?
Nuggin writes:
Who are you trying to fool?
I am not trying to fool anybody.
But who are you trying to fool by posting that everything I said in Message 52 is a lie?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Nuggin, posted 02-23-2010 11:20 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Nuggin, posted 02-23-2010 4:06 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 57 by DC85, posted 02-26-2010 7:20 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 56 of 57 (547888)
02-23-2010 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Nuggin
02-23-2010 4:06 PM


Re: Macro evolution
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes:
I'm not playing the "I didn't lie this one time" game.
You were replying to a specific message when you made the statement that I was lying.
Nuggin writes:
The point is you've openly and deliberately lied to me
Either present the evidence where I lied to you or retract.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Nuggin, posted 02-23-2010 4:06 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
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