Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   Help me enlighten my wife...
Percy
Member
Posts: 18376
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 16 of 40 (464511)
04-26-2008 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by killinghurts
04-26-2008 1:38 AM


killinghurts writes:

Another thing is that her grandfather died of septicemia (sp?) after a blood transfusion...

Oh, oh, how convenient! She's a JW who just happens to have a grandfather who died of blood poisoning after submitting to one of the great bugaboos of the Jehovah's Witnesses, a blood transfusion!

You may be a victim of a wild coincidence, but I doubt it. Check into this, I bet the truth isn't anything so simple or even corroborative of her story. If you're determined to peck away at an irrational belief using rationality, then disproving her objections one at a time may be effective, though I doubt it. Speaking for myself, I know facts have absolutely no influence over my own irrational beliefs. Oops, sunrise, gotta go before the change starts...

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by killinghurts, posted 04-26-2008 1:38 AM killinghurts has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 17 of 40 (464538)
04-26-2008 8:49 PM


I don't think I'm ever going to change her mind. Hell, even the JW's change their "understanding" on things more often than I change my underwear, so what hope do I have? One person against an entire organisation, the odds are pretty slim.
Anyway we got into an argument about it yesterday, (well at least I wasn't arguing, she was) and it turns out she doesn't wan't to speak about it anymore... so I guess that's that. Actually it seems everytime we get to the point where the rational thought breaks down, it ends up in a mess.
Thanks for the suggestions though, maybe they will help someone else who is in my position.
I think there are two thinks that make people believe in this tripe:

a) Being poor.
b) Being alone.

Without those two, the organisation can't trap the minds of the weak.


  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 18 of 40 (464549)
04-27-2008 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-23-2008 11:43 PM


Is that so...........................................
I have been trying and trying to convince her to realise that the people in the watch tower are either devious or simpletons (or a combination of both).

What she fails to realise is that when the JW organisation is offering a new "understanding" what in fact is happening is the JW organisation is offering "excuses" to the logical argument that they were previously talking out of their arse.

.......................................................or is it just your opinion?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 04-23-2008 11:43 PM killinghurts has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by killinghurts, posted 04-27-2008 6:34 AM pelican has responded

  
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 19 of 40 (464561)
04-27-2008 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by pelican
04-27-2008 3:41 AM


Re: Is that so...........................................
No it's not my opinion, they were once specifying a truth - a truth that to them was absolutly undeniable - as undeniable as gravity itself, anyone who questionoed the truth (which is excatly what I and others did *before* they changed it) would be told that they themselves don't understand the teachings..
They then changed what that truth was. And was there any questioning afterward? No. Was their any indication of investigation onto why they were wrong in the first place? No. Are they right now? Who knows? Can they make up anything they like? Yes.
Here is my opinion (seeing as though you asked so nicely) - It's easy to see why they changed it - millions of people who were told that "this generation will not die" are now dead. To me it seems a tiny bit coincidental the story they came up with changed the definition of a "generation" to one that didn't put a timeframe on the event.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by pelican, posted 04-27-2008 7:43 AM killinghurts has responded

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 20 of 40 (464564)
04-27-2008 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by killinghurts
04-27-2008 6:34 AM


Re: Is that so...........................................
I was referring to your opinion of "devious simpletons talking out their arses"

This is hardly endearing towards your wife now, is it?

I think you might go about changing yourself before trying to change your wife. Good luck, you'll need it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by killinghurts, posted 04-27-2008 6:34 AM killinghurts has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by killinghurts, posted 04-27-2008 7:39 PM pelican has responded

  
john6zx
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 66
Joined: 01-27-2007


Message 21 of 40 (464619)
04-27-2008 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-23-2008 11:43 PM


TO killinghurts.

You married your wife knowing that she was a jehovah's witness. You knew this going in, so why are you now trying to change her? Her beliefs and her way of life is what you accepted when you married her, respect that. If you married a woman that smoked before you met her and now that you are married you want her to stop smoking because you do not like smoking, it is not the womans problem it is yours. The woman that you married has not changed from the woman that you fell in love with. You married the whole package, trying to change her is trying to change her into a woman that is different than the one that you fell in love with. Your wifes beliefs are what make her the woman you love, so do not mess with it. Just enjoy your marriage and stop trying to find fault in your wife. I am sure that you would not feel very close to your wife if she started to feel the need for you to become someone other than the man that she married. Enjoy your marriage and put your energy in making your wife happy, a happy wife is a happy husband.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 04-23-2008 11:43 PM killinghurts has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 22 of 40 (464625)
04-27-2008 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
04-24-2008 4:09 PM


side note
Personally I think they twist the Bible to say what they want it to say or either change it to say what they want it to say.

How do we know that this is not what all believers do? How do we know that she is not right and you are the one that does the twisting? This could form a basis for an interesting thread.

seekingthetruth in Message 4: All you can do is love her and encourage her to find the truth.

Phat in Message 3: I would support her desire to understand Jehovah, but I would encourage her to be unafraid to question whatever it is she is being taught. ... Only through questioning will anyone ever grow.

killinghurts in Message 1: ... I would blame myself for not being able to enlighten her in the purity of lateral, logical and sane thinking.

It all comes down to how you find truth, how you test it for being true.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : : added


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 04-24-2008 4:09 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18376
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 23 of 40 (464626)
04-27-2008 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by john6zx
04-27-2008 3:56 PM


I thought all strong marriages were based upon the premise, "Well, he/she has a few flaws, but what the heck, we're in love. After we're married there'll be plenty of time to smooth out the rough edges." Such hope has kept many marriages alive and kicking for decades.

My wife and have several issues over which we relentlessly disagree, and over the years we've had great fun with them because neither of us really holds out any hope that we're going to convince the other, but fortunately for us none of the differences concerned potentially life threatening issues. Your wife is an adult and will make her own decisions, and you'll just have to accept that, though I do recommend that you not follow your wife's wishes if you should ever find yourself in the unfortunate position of making medical decisions for her.

But what if you have kids? Now things get sticky.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by john6zx, posted 04-27-2008 3:56 PM john6zx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 24 of 40 (464632)
04-27-2008 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-23-2008 11:43 PM


Secondly I love my wife and if something happens where she requires a blood transfusion,...

If this is the only concern you have, then you need to discuss it with her. There are options - one of which is self-transfusions, where blood is taken out and then put back when needed (this is a good thing to do when you know you will need an operation if you have any concerns about tainted blood).

I recently went through an extreme version of this. See Cancer Survivors. I had an "autogenic transplant" (see message 24), where they took blood out of my arm for most of a day and then separated out "precursor cells" (bone marrow stem cells that had not differentiated into white blood cells yet), then they used heavy chemo treatment over four days (96 hours non-stop) to kill (hopefully) all my then existing white blood cells, whether good or bad (cancerous), and then gave me a transfusion of those same precursor cells they had taken from me to build a new white blood system.

They put them back in the same vein they took them out of. Try the logic of that on your wife.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 04-23-2008 11:43 PM killinghurts has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19819
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 25 of 40 (464633)
04-27-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
04-27-2008 5:27 PM


... I do recommend that you not follow your wife's wishes if you should ever find yourself in the unfortunate position of making medical decisions for her.

... Now things get sticky.

hoo boy. Do you want your wife to follow your wishes or to decide according to her judgment?

Sticky indeed. One should put such wishes in a document that is witnessed and signed if you have any question of choices being made.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 04-27-2008 5:27 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 26 of 40 (464660)
04-27-2008 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by pelican
04-27-2008 7:43 AM


Re: Is that so...........................................
quote:
I was referring to your opinion of "devious simpletons talking out their arses"

This is hardly endearing towards your wife now, is it?

I think you might go about changing yourself before trying to change your wife. Good luck, you'll need it.


That's the second miscommunication we have had in two posts. I wasn't talking about my wife, I was talking about the Watch Tower. Let's stop before it gets messy hey?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by pelican, posted 04-27-2008 7:43 AM pelican has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by pelican, posted 04-27-2008 10:51 PM killinghurts has not yet responded

  
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 27 of 40 (464662)
04-27-2008 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by john6zx
04-27-2008 3:56 PM


quote:
TO killinghurts.

You married your wife knowing that she was a jehovah's witness. You knew this going in, so why are you now trying to change her? Her beliefs and her way of life is what you accepted when you married her, respect that. If you married a woman that smoked before you met her and now that you are married you want her to stop smoking because you do not like smoking, it is not the womans problem it is yours. The woman that you married has not changed from the woman that you fell in love with. You married the whole package, trying to change her is trying to change her into a woman that is different than the one that you fell in love with. Your wifes beliefs are what make her the woman you love, so do not mess with it. Just enjoy your marriage and stop trying to find fault in your wife. I am sure that you would not feel very close to your wife if she started to feel the need for you to become someone other than the man that she married. Enjoy your marriage and put your energy in making your wife happy, a happy wife is a happy husband.


1) You cannot make a blanket statement like that. For instance, my grandfather was on his way to being a catholic priest until his wife (my grandmother) came along and helped him realise what a crock of shite the whole thing was.

2) I knew she was a Jehovah's witness, that's fine, I did *not* know Jehovah's witnesses were against blood transfusions, and they she would (one year after we married) sign a form (given to her by JW's) declining any form of blood transfusion. Are you saying that is my fault?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by john6zx, posted 04-27-2008 3:56 PM john6zx has not yet responded

  
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 28 of 40 (464663)
04-27-2008 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
04-27-2008 5:27 PM


We do have kids. And it is sticky.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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pelican
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 29 of 40 (464679)
04-27-2008 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by killinghurts
04-27-2008 7:39 PM


Re: Is that so...........................................
That's the second miscommunication we have had in two posts. I wasn't talking about my wife, I was talking about the Watch Tower. Let's stop before it gets messy hey?

No sir, you were speaking about those JW's who write the watchtower and referring to the rest of the JW's as followers. If the authors are simpletons and talking out their arses, aren't their followers also simpleton's for believing it and also talking out their arses?
But your wife is the exception because it suits your argument better?

Maybe it is the generalizing I am opposed to in your posts. I am sure there are many JW's who are honest, sincere, mean no harm and actually are law abiding, hard working citizens, including your wife.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by killinghurts, posted 04-27-2008 7:39 PM killinghurts has not yet responded

  
Deftil
Member (Idle past 2565 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 30 of 40 (464725)
04-28-2008 6:35 PM


So you obviously finds your wife's views on this unreasonable; do you normally find her to be a reasonable person?
My guess would be yes, otherwise you wouldn't have married her, but for all I know you could be a sadist or something. (aren't most people that ger married... j/k, kind of)
Anyhow, if your wife is normally swayed by reason, I think a patient persistence might be in order here. You obviously can't expect to change her mind about beliefs she's had her entire life in a few conversations, but if you keeping chipping away for awhile, you may find that she eventually comes around.
I actually find the fact that she's starting to have trouble talking about it promising. If she was firmly 100% set in her beliefs, she might very well have no trouble at all talking about it, but the fact that it upsets her may very well show that she isn't so secure in her beliefs, and is going through a difficult evaluation process in her mind. Even though she may not always be responsive during the conversations you guys have on this topic, I'm sure she has lingering thoughts about them well after the conversations are over.
So my advice is to be patient and persistant, and love her in spite of the flaws you perceive her as having, as that is what you would want her to do for you.

Best of luck.


    
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