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Author Topic:   God.....again.
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 50 (46561)
07-20-2003 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Miguel
07-20-2003 3:20 PM


I don't understand why atheists deny the existence of a creator.
Because there's no evidence of one. And generally I don't go around believing in the existence of things for which there is no evidence. But like all conclusions from data, I'm tentative about that.
God could exist, I guess. There's nothing that, to my knowledge, prevents the existence of God. It's just my conclusion from the data that he doesn't exist at this time. So, given that there's no evidence, I'm absolutely sure that god doesn't exist - but I know I could be wrong.
When i look to logical arguments, although i don't think they are a proof, it seems to me that the arguments that say that nature as a rational structure, structured by a creator, are better when compared to what atheism has to say...
Nature doesn't really have that much rational structure. Unless you'd care to explain why I possess an appendix with no specific function.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Miguel, posted 07-20-2003 3:20 PM Miguel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by EndocytosisSynthesis, posted 07-20-2003 4:50 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 8 by Miguel, posted 07-20-2003 7:33 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 22 by nator, posted 07-21-2003 10:35 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 50 (46585)
07-20-2003 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by EndocytosisSynthesis
07-20-2003 4:50 PM


Crashfrog, The reason you've never found any evidence for a creator is because you're never looking for any, and if you did find some you'd deny it no matter what because you're baised towards evolution.
To the contrary. I've been looking for some time. I used to be a creationist, you know - and very Christian indeed. But I came to wonder how I could be sure. I started looking for the evidence that everybody said was there, and when I couldn't find it - and I looked for years - I came to realize I couldn't find it because it wasn't there.
So, no, I'm not biased towards evolution - I'm biased towards conclusions supported by evidence. That's what being a scientist (and I use the term to describe myself very loosely) means.
If you have some evidence for god, I'd love to hear it. Of course you'll have to defend it as I have some pretty rigorous standards for proof. But if your god does exist, he should be able to meet my standards, right? After all I'll accept the same kind of evidence for god's existence as I would accept for your existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by EndocytosisSynthesis, posted 07-20-2003 4:50 PM EndocytosisSynthesis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Miguel, posted 07-20-2003 7:52 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 50 (46612)
07-20-2003 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Miguel
07-20-2003 7:33 PM


The same laws that are responsable for the structure of the universe, and that our reason can understand...
The laws of nature are apprently constant, I'll give you that. But I'm not sure they're any more reasonable than any other conceivable law. For instance, I can move freely in all three spacial dimensions. Why then can't I move freely in the fourth dimension of time? Seems arbitrary to me.

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 Message 8 by Miguel, posted 07-20-2003 7:33 PM Miguel has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Peter, posted 07-21-2003 6:54 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 50 (46613)
07-20-2003 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Miguel
07-20-2003 7:52 PM


But why are so many properties of the universe fine-tuned for life? Why are there so many coincidences that make our existence possible?
Because if they weren't that way, we wouldn't be here to ask. The Weak Anthropic principle handles questions like that pretty well, I'd say...
It's like asking "What are the odds that my mother would have mated with the exact man to get the genetic material that would make me me?" As you say, it's reasoning backwards. Sorry if that's not enough explanation for you. It is for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Miguel, posted 07-20-2003 7:52 PM Miguel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Miguel, posted 07-21-2003 8:54 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 50 (46726)
07-21-2003 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by nator
07-21-2003 10:35 AM


Gosh, frog, you sound like one of us Agnostics!
As I think I've argued before, if I sound like an agnostic, it's because there's no meaningful difference between being an agnostic and being atheist within the scientific framkework of tenativity of knowledge.
I'm basically as sure as I can be that there's no god. I think that makes me atheist even though that's not the same as absolutely sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by nator, posted 07-21-2003 10:35 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by nator, posted 07-21-2003 4:18 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
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