My mind's in a knot... (Re: Who/what created God?)

Aside from that Straggler has disproved your point you just refuted the very argument you're trying to make.God exists because all things need an origin, yet God doesn't need an origin. That's special pleading. You just proved what I argued!

I haven't even mentioned complexity whatsoever, so how can you know this about me?I am stating a FACT, that my belief in the bible preceded my knowledge of the argument of causes. This means, through deductive logic, a rational person can conclude that I could not propose God's eternal nature posteriori, as that knowledge came through reading the bible texts, which are recorded information, and count as evidence and was recorded in my brain apriori.As for my apology, I present this as an opportunity for you to calm down as I am not here to increase your blood pressure. I personally do not mind if you are hostile, because as you can see, my posts number in the thousands so I am well used to hostile behaviour. Though I do find that coherency is unfortunately lost if it is prevailent.Also, it is my preference to debate in a completely rational manner. I enjoy Modulous's posts, and Parasomnium's because they have 0% epithets. I suggest you read some posts from those clever chaps, if you want me to apreciate your posts as coherent. Right now they're coming off as highly argumentative and irrational bordering on hysterical. You have it backwards. I read the bible which told me of an eternal creator, I then come across a silly argument that insists he must have a cause. My answer is simple - he doesn't have to have a cause.Incase you forget steady state, it was quite acceptable for the universe to have been infinite. Now the Big Bang is more prominent, that theory is not regarded as credible.Your problem is that I can't ask the question; 'who caused my God?' AND remain a biblical Christian. So it is ludicrous to state that I have a double standard. I merely have someone requiring that I become an atheist, and suffer the same illness of self-righteousness, by proclaiming that my God must be caused.Why on earth would I do that?I suggest we abandon this debate as it is heading nowhere.

How is that an absolutely solid axiom anyway?The observable needs an origin. The natural world, and it's components, by observation, it can be determined that they require a cause.It takes a fallacious LEAP to then apply this to the transcendent supernatural.The bible, which existed before these arguments, tells us that the invisible created the visible, the eternal the none-eternal.So before it's special pleading, you have to PROVE that God MUST need a cause BECAUSE he is an observable natural component BECAUSE the reasoning, "all things need a cause", is only based on observation.Checkmate.Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

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How is that an absolutely solid axiom anyway?

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The observable needs an origin. The natural world, and it's components, by observation, it can be determined that they require a cause

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Alright,

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It takes a fallacious LEAP to then apply this to the transcendent supernatural.

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No, you have changed the argument. Instead of all things, you've modified it to observable. That's raising the bar.

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The bible, which existed before these arguments, tells us that the invisible created the visible, the eternal the none-eternal.

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And the holy book of the invisible pink unicorn says the bible is a load of lies. Good job on failing to understand what citing such books generally results in poor arguments.

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Checkmate.

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Not at all. You used the fallacy of raising the bar.

Would you be so kind as to send me your copy of the holy book of the invisible pink unicorn so I can verify that statement for myself.I can not find a copy on e-bay.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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Hey, so long as we don't start killing people, like some nations do, the feeling should be mutual.

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Religion has killed, and will continue to kill people. The best we can say about God is nothing. Judgment or not God has also been directly responsible for the murder of people as well.

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People are not stupid, religion is.

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Would you be so kind as to send me your copy of the holy book of the invisible pink unicorn so I can verify that statement for myself.

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What is your address? I will mail it off. If you are near Brownsburg, Indiana I am on Lincoln Ave - stop by we will discuss it.Brother Rob can vouch for me - I am good people.For now here is a primer:
THE INVISIBLE PINK UNICORN (pbuh)

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People are not stupid, religion is.

Religions don't kill people.... People kill people

more at fanatical religious people, kill people.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

It's not raising the bar. I am QUESTIONING the claim, "all things must have a cause".That is just a claim like any other. What is it actually based on? Science? Well, science has not detected anything other than the natural world, therefore the claim "all things" must infact include all things or it is not sound.This claim is only based on observation, it is not an absolute, forged-in-the-fire-fact you know. All claims must have merit, and be based on something.The opposition proposes that all things must have a cause, AFTER the bible was made.The pink unicorn bible either doesn't exist, or was made a few years ago for the sole purpose of atheists.I think I'll leave it here. I invite you to go over what I have said, and research more on why a double standard is a double standard.2 clues;1. Equality.
2. Fairness.Now two differing words; "supernatural" and "natural".I am positive you can work out the rest, and therefore see that I am not talking rubbish.That's all I can say, I feel explaining it would make people just ignore me. God bless.

Most generic groups of people, kill people.

Rrhain writes: With this apparent prevelege (spelling?) also comes responsiblity.Do you want to make decisions on the God has to make ? Who should live today and who should die? At what age should this or that person die?I would not like to have to make the decisions that God makes. Rather than complain I recognize that I would not be able to bear up under the heaven burden of justly administering the entire universe. I don't think I say "some things happen on their own". I say that God occupies a class of which there is only one unique member.Do you also complain why we can't detect the outer end of the universe? Everything else has a boundary of some type. Hey, its not fair that the universe gets to be infinite. Do you complain about that also?Does it irk you that as far as we can see there are galaxies? Does it annoy you that you can't with all of your human smarts bump into the wall of the universe?And life is greater than material. So don't complain about an uncreated and eternal divine Life. If you can't beat em, join Him. That's the way to peace. What are the "others" besides God that don't get to be created? Please identify these OTHER things that share this right. Though we do not get to be eternally uncreated we DO get to have eternal life and an eternal future through God's salvation.Why not take that and be happy. At least the eternal God has kind of met you half way?God loves you and desires that you have eternal life. Rather He desires that you have Him as your eternal life. So you at least to get half of what He is - you get eternal from now on.Instead of grip why not consider sharing the eternity future in His love and enjoyment? Who are the "those" you refer to. Not even the angels are said to have always lived. The class of Eternal God is occupied by ONE.Theologians sometimes refer to this as God as the "Ground of Being." I think Paul Tillich is the one who most used that phrase. He'll argue with you.We cannot like God say that we always were. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. We can say that we derive from Him eternal life into the endless future.The fact that my Heavenly Father is uncreated perplexes my limited mind. But it does not engender resentment in me. Rather it draws forth my praise, and love, and worship in the enjoyment of such a one.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There can only be one source, Man.Without a conscienceless to perceive Him, God would be alone.God is a title. Man gives meaning to titles. God is only God if recognized to be so by us.Without us to place no one above Him, He could be just a pimple on some bigger God’s rump.God can only speak through the mouth of a man therefore the first God was a man. The last shall be as well.Regards
DL

If i could ask you where time began or what is time or where we are in the stream of time, how would you answer?

Yes." Indeed,from eternity to eternity, You are God" (Psalm 90:2)From eternity God was. Unto eternity God will be. Is that the case? Or is it the case that you intend not to accept what the Bible told you? I mean, could it be that you just decided that the idea of the eternality of God is not in the Bible no matter what is pointed out to you?Do you have some perculiar twist of Psalm 90:2 to make it say the opposite of what it says? From eternity His is God. I don't think so. - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Gen. 1:1)That means there is a start to the universe.In fact through the Word it says everything that came into being came into being through Him:"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:3)I think I hear you saying "But Heaven as God's abode always was." I don't know that from the Scripture. I see no passage telling me that. I see passages suggesting that what the NT would refer to as "the third heaven" is also created.God says in Isaiah 66: The passage impresses me as stressing that nothing in all the vault of the universe anywhere or in any dimension could really be called God's abode. But He does look for His ultimate rest and abode in man - "but to this kind of man I will look ..."God looks to dwell in man. God chooses His abode to be with a kind of human being. We can see in Jesus Christ a Man within whom the eternal God lived.And we can see God's desire to expand this dwelling of Himself in man. He wants to make an abode in the lovers of Christ the standard model of God in man and man in God: [qs][b]"Jesus answered and said to him, If wnytone loves Me, he will keep my word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)[/][/qs]In Isaiah 66 God said all creation, all the universe could not serve as His abode. But He would look to a certain kind of man for His house. And in John we see the Triune God coming to make an abode in that kind of man - "We will come to him and make an abode with him"This is why Jesus - the living temple of God, said in the beginning of the chapter [b]"In My Father's house there are many abodes. If it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you." (14:2)He means that through His death and resurrection He will prepare a place in God. That is a place in the Father. Man and God will mutually abide in each other. This is the eternal mutual abode that God seeks.My opinion is that angels were created and heaven in the sense of some other dimensional place of God was also created. And it is clear to me that in eternity future the dwelling place of the Triune God will be in a corporate group of saved people into whom the Triune God will dispense Himself as eternal life. Genesis 1:1 plainly tells us that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So the universe has not always been as God has always been.To carry out His plan to dispense Himself into man He had to create a universe as a realm for out existence.I have to discontinue now. I will respond to your other comments latter.