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Author Topic:   The infinite space of the Universe
Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 8 of 380 (467106)
05-19-2008 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Agobot
05-17-2008 4:39 PM


Is it infinite?
Is the universe considered infinite as such?
I thought current cosmological modls suggested that if you went in one direction fast enough (i.e. >>C), for long enough then you would eventually end up back where you started?
This was my understanding and I am keen to be corrected if this is not the case?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Agobot, posted 05-17-2008 4:39 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Agobot, posted 05-19-2008 4:20 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2008 9:54 PM Straggler has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 10 of 380 (467111)
05-19-2008 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Agobot
05-19-2008 4:20 PM


Re: Is it infinite?
Wouldn't this mean that some of the galaxies at the far end of the universe would be turning up at the other end of the universe?
I don't think so. Not unless they were travelling in one direction faster than the rate of expansion, which itself exceeds the speed of light.
I could well be completely talking out of my arse here. So I think we need some input from someone who actually has a knowledge of these concepts including the proposed shape of the universe, the rate of expansion and what the speed of light actually means in relation to moving bodies seperated by space in an expanding universe.
Cavediver...?
Son Guko...?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Agobot, posted 05-19-2008 4:20 PM Agobot has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 70 of 380 (467733)
05-23-2008 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Marcosll
05-23-2008 10:14 AM


Re: Big Bang
Matter is not "expelled". It is not an explosion of matter. It is an "explosion" of space (and time).
In other words the space between the matter expands thus the matter seperates. According to inflation theory this occurs incredibly rapidly in the very early universe. Much much much faster than the speed of light.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by IamJoseph, posted 05-23-2008 10:36 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 75 of 380 (467771)
05-24-2008 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by IamJoseph
05-23-2008 10:36 PM


Re: SPACE IS NOT INFINITE NOR WAS IT ALWAYS PRESENT.
Space is matter, and matter comes from a gas [gasous state], which is resultant from pre-sun light essence [aka dark matter - which appeared before matter].
Space is matter?
How so?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Agobot, posted 05-24-2008 8:48 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 78 of 380 (467798)
05-24-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Agobot
05-24-2008 8:48 AM


Re: SPACE IS NOT INFINITE NOR WAS IT ALWAYS PRESENT.
If space is not matter, then space does not exist.
So is time matter too?
Or does time not exist?

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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 79 of 380 (467799)
05-24-2008 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Agobot
05-24-2008 8:48 AM


Re: SPACE IS NOT INFINITE NOR WAS IT ALWAYS PRESENT.
If space is not matter, then space does not exist.
So is time matter too?
Or does time not exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Agobot, posted 05-24-2008 8:48 AM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Agobot, posted 05-24-2008 4:59 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 85 of 380 (467891)
05-25-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Agobot
05-24-2008 4:59 PM


Re: SPACE IS NOT INFINITE NOR WAS IT ALWAYS PRESENT.
If space existed the way time "exists", you'd be living in a very virtual world.
If you would stop making unsubstantiated assertions you might actually say something worthwhile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Agobot, posted 05-24-2008 4:59 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Agobot, posted 05-25-2008 3:28 PM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 91 of 380 (467932)
05-25-2008 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Agobot
05-25-2008 3:28 PM


Re: SPACE IS NOT INFINITE NOR WAS IT ALWAYS PRESENT.
Here is something worthwhile - Time is a concept while space has a very material existence. You need proof?
Proof? A dictionary definition of a technical word? Are you serious?
The predicted empirical results of General Relativity are a much firmer basis on which to base our conception and knowledge of the nature of time.
Additionally the increase of entropy, 2nd law of thermodynamics and the "arrow of time" need to be taken into account.
Frankly Aqo you are evidently so far out of your depth and so certain in your misapperhensions that I doubt you have anything worthwhile to say on this topic at all.

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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 92 of 380 (467933)
05-25-2008 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by walterberns
05-25-2008 2:57 PM


Re: Infinate Big Bangs
Hi Walterberns
Welcome to EvC. We have been discussing the issues you raise and related topics in this thread http://EvC Forum: T=0 and a Zero Energy Universe -->EvC Forum: T=0 and a Zero Energy Universe
Also relevant is the transcript of an Alan Guth lecture that can be found here - http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0101/0101507v1.pdf
If you are looking for direct responses to your comments clicking the 'reply' button of the message that you are responding to will notify the person who wrote the message you are responding to.
Welcome aboard!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by walterberns, posted 05-25-2008 2:57 PM walterberns has replied

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 120 of 380 (468163)
05-27-2008 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Agobot
05-27-2008 5:50 PM


Re: What is space?
If the word nothingness does not signify anything meaningful, then there is no need for such a word. However, the word can be found in every dictionary and that is a paradox.
True nothingness is a concept. Not a paradox.
In the everyday world nothingness rarely corresponds to true nothingness and nor does it need to.
When we say "There is nothing there" we don't actually mean empty spacetime in day to day use.
Anyway there are many things that are concepts that do not strictly exist.
There is no such thing as a "true" circle. It is a mathematical construct. By your definition does that mean circles do not exist in reality? Likewise spheres? Should these terms be removed from dictionaries on the basis that they do not exist?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 121 of 380 (468164)
05-27-2008 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by cavediver
05-27-2008 4:46 PM


Re: What is space?
Ok, for those with an actual interest in 'an' answer, the problem is what fields are we considering for this vacuum? If we're just talking about the 'basic' linear matter/force fields (quantum electrodynamics- i.e. photons & electrons) with a flat background metric (space-time), then we have the simple quantum vacuum state of the fields. There are no real particles in the vacuum state, but the fields are certainly not zero valued as is demonstrated by the Casimir Effect (by reducing the field vacumm fluctuations below that of the true vacuum).
This simple picture grows vastly more complicated when we hit the non-linear fields of Quantum ChromoDynamics and gravitation - their vacuum structures form global non-trivial backgrounds.
I am interested.
Where does the weak nuclear force fit into this? Does that have a field presence in the vacuum too? Do all 4 fundamental forces have an ever present field presence in every point of the vacuum?
How does the answer to this relate to a possible theory of everything?
This simple picture grows vastly more complicated when we hit the non-linear fields of Quantum ChromoDynamics and gravitation - their vacuum structures form global non-trivial backgrounds.
How does gravitataion have a field effect in the vacuum of curved spacetime when gravitation is curved spacetime? I am missing something fundamental here as this doesn't make sense to me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by cavediver, posted 05-27-2008 4:46 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by cavediver, posted 05-28-2008 7:25 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 136 of 380 (468253)
05-28-2008 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by cavediver
05-28-2008 7:25 AM


Re: What is space?
Yes, it is another non-linear set of fields. This is where vacuum studies get very interesting as you're into the world of spontaneous symmetry breaking and the Higgs mechanism (and associated Higgs boson of course) In its most symmetrical state, what we think of as the electrodynamic fields (photons, electron, etc) are wrapped up into the eletcroweak fields. But this is not the lowest energy state. The true vacuum of the electroweak fields breaks the symmetry and we get the weak force and electrodynamics effectively splitting apart.
Can you explain further the idea of symmetry breaking? Also the Higgs mechanism and the role of the Higgs Boson?
How are symmetries and laws of conservation related? Does the breaking of a symmetry in this context (the electroweak split) result in the separation of a conservation law? Or is this a complete misunderstanding of the relationship between the two things?
There is some pre-existing topology
If the pre-existing topology is not a result of the fields what defines or shapes this topology? Was this topology something inherent in the BB and thus inevitable for example or did it evolve afterwards as a result of other factors such as energy/mass distribution (for example)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by cavediver, posted 05-28-2008 7:25 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by cavediver, posted 05-29-2008 4:26 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 144 by Son Goku, posted 05-29-2008 6:17 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 143 of 380 (468370)
05-29-2008 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by cavediver
05-29-2008 4:26 AM


Re: What is space?
No problem - course starts in three weeks - is 24 x 1 hour lectures, and a course fee of 2995
Oh.
Just out of interest do you really teach such a course?
Can you reccommend a decent book that can explain the basis of these concepts without requiring a Phd in maths to get past the first chapter?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by cavediver, posted 05-29-2008 4:26 AM cavediver has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 145 of 380 (468480)
05-29-2008 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Son Goku
05-29-2008 6:17 AM


Re: Symmetry
Thankyou for your reply. I appreciate your time.
I attended(ish) lectures by TW Kibble and Abdus Salaam at college and so desperately wish that I had then realised the opportunity afforded me. If ever there was proof that youth is wasted on the young it is I.
For every global symmetry there is a corresponding conservation law.
Symmetry under time translation => Conservation of energy
Symmetry under space translation => Conservation of momentum
Symmetry under rotations => Conservation of angular momentum
Symmetry under complex number rotation => Conservation of electric charge.
e.t.c.
From which symmetries are the conservation of spin and color derived?
Symmetry breaking is when the laws of physics appear differently to you, due to some condition of your environment.
A very rough analogy is conservation of momentum. Momentum is always conserved, however here on earth when you throw a ball it appears to lose momentum and fall to the ground. Of course this is due to the friction with air. However having air as a background rather than truly empty space means the effective physics on earth is quite different to the true physics. Symmetry breaking is basically when some background thing (Air, a field, e.t.c.) causes physics to appear different.
The Higg's field is currently in it's vacuum state. That is the state with lowest energy. This Higg's vacuum causes the electroweak force to effectively seperate. Just like air causes an effective loss of conservation of momentum.
I don't understand the term "Higgs field". I get the concept of the 4 fundamental forces of nature as fields but what is the Higgs field? What role does the Higgs boson play in the Higgs field? Is it the "force carrier" particle?
No, because electroweak symmetry is a local symmetry. Only global symmetry is associated with conservation laws. To be totally accurate however a global symmetry does get destroyed in electroweak symmetry breaking. In that case the symmetry is gone.
Understood (I think). Thankyou for making this clearer than any previous explanation I have heard.
To give another example local symmetry of multiplication by a 3x3 matrix implies the existence of gluons and the strong force.
Can you explain how this works in more detail?
What makes it local rather than global?
I appreciate that this might be getting to the point where
A) Maths becomes the only meaningful method of describing these things
B) I am completely out of my depth
C) It becomes too time consuming for you to try and explain
As such can you reccommend any books that are of a suitable level that might shed some light on the basics of these topics? I am not mathematically illiterate but rusty is an undertatement. My undergraduate physics course was all too long ago.................

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Son Goku, posted 05-29-2008 6:17 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 148 by Son Goku, posted 05-29-2008 7:19 PM Straggler has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 218 of 380 (469133)
06-04-2008 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Buzsaw
06-03-2008 10:52 PM


Re: Try Hard
lyx2noAnyway, let us make this steel bar: What method will you, Buzsaw, to measure its straightness? I grant you perfect instruments and skills. You need only explain the mechanical activities you exercise to measure the bar. No theory, no philosophy.
This is a real question, and a real attempt to answer it can be instructive. I’d appreciate it if you give it a well thought out try.
The measurement of the bar's straightness is irrelevant. As a model for the purpose of this debate, assume it is perfectly straight, what is relevant is the properties of the bar. You have yet to explain what properties the bar has to bend and reconnect to the base of it's beginning, resting perpendicular to the surface of the earth.
Also what properties of space is capable of bending the perfectly straight bar of steel to reconnect itself.
Buz you could of at least tried to answer Lyx2No's question. It is pretty darn relevant.
What is perfectly straight? No deviations from a single direction? No deviations in space?
If the space itself is curved.......... Well you work the rest out for yourself.
However the bar itself remains perfectly straight. The bar itself doesn't need to bend or deviate to reconnect. That is the point.
Think of your steel bar as a having a small laser attached at the point where you are holding the bar. This produces a laser beam. A perfectly straight laser beam shining along perfectly parallel to the steel bar just above the surface of the steel bar.
At what point would you expect the paths of the perfectly straight laser and the perfectly straight steel bar to separate? Which one of the two do you consider to be "straight"?
Do you see the point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Buzsaw, posted 06-03-2008 10:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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