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Author Topic:   Absence of Evidence..............
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 21 of 138 (467833)
05-24-2008 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
05-22-2008 11:14 AM


Absence of Evidence..............
Strictly speaking the absence of evidence is only evidence of the absence of evidence, and nothing more can be logically concluded.
... we should obviously treat the existence of Vishnu as 50/50.
Nor does it follow that any concept needs to be considered in equal light (the major fallacy of the "teach both sides" crowd), especially when there are conceivably an infinite number of conjectural possibilities.
When we get beyond the realm of scientific tentatively validated knowledge we enter the realm of basic uncertainty and basic beliefs that may or may not be true. What we can honestly say is that we do not know for sure, except that we currently observe an absence of evidence.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 05-22-2008 11:14 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by bluegenes, posted 05-25-2008 12:45 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 26 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2008 6:45 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 25 of 138 (467865)
05-25-2008 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by bluegenes
05-25-2008 12:45 AM


knowing the unknowable.
This seems correct. So, when there are "conceivably an infinite number of conjectural possibilities" then believing in any one would, logically, be best described as bloody stupid.
Atheism, I must point out here, is ...
... one of those conjectural possibilities.
So, when there is zero evidence in any area, it is sensible to lack belief ....
... in any conjectural possibility being the absolute truth.
Including atheism. The only truly logical choice is a skeptical agnosticism, as anything else is a choice made on the basis of belief in knowing an unknowable truth.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by bluegenes, posted 05-25-2008 12:45 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by bluegenes, posted 05-25-2008 8:30 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 28 of 138 (467880)
05-25-2008 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Straggler
05-25-2008 6:45 AM


No empirical evidence
My OP was aimed at beliefs in things for which it is claimed that there can be no empirical evidence.
Thanks for the clarification. I presume this would include such things as the existence of alternate universes, or what came before "T=0".
This is the same point I was making with this example. It seems to a be a common argument here at EvC that if we have no physical evidence on which to base any conclusions we should treat all claims equally. This position is obviously logically flawed.
The usual (strawman?) argument involves pink unicorns and the flying spaghetti monster, the issue being that while we cannot absolutely rule them out, there is no rational reason to believe in them.
Here I do not agree.
A complete absence of physical evidence of any kind in relation to a claim, especially if evidence for the claim in question is pro-actively sought, can only ever suggest that the claim is false.
There was a complete absence of evidence of any kind for the existence of the Ivory Billed Woodpecker after the last known specimens had died.
If a scientific theory predicted a certain new particle (for example) and after years of research and a multitude of experiments designed to detect the particle no evidence for the particle was found would we not consider the theory as having been at least possibly falsified and a new theory necessary?
Such as a graviton? The problem may be that there is evidence, but we don't know how to observe it yet. If we never find a graviton does that mean that gravity does not exist? Or does it mean that we are looking in the wrong place or with the wrong equipment?
In the case of the soul (for example) the complete absence of any empirical basis for such a claim means that the reasons given for belief in such a thing are inherently and demonstrably unreliable. In the absence of physical evidence for such a thing we must conclude that it does not exist.
Can you absolutely prove that pink unicorns do not exist? The only thing I can properly conclude from an absence of evidence for pink unicorns is that there is an absence of evidence for pink unicorns, and nothing more. I can treat the concept of pink unicorns with skeptical agnosticism, I can chose to believe in their existence in spite of an absence of evidence, or I can chose to believe in an absence of existence because of the absence of evidence, but neither of those choices are based on logic or evidence.
Any claim to the contrary and we head back into the realm of invisible pink unicorns once again.
I am highly skeptical about the existence of invisible pink unicorns.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2008 6:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by lyx2no, posted 05-25-2008 8:52 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2008 12:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 138 (467884)
05-25-2008 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by bluegenes
05-25-2008 8:30 AM


going OT on the old atheist argument again
I just pointed out that atheism is a skeptical agnosticism.
Only if it is highly skeptical about the existence but does not rule it out, and then it is usually called "weak atheism" (while an honest look would call it agnosticism). Strong atheism does not allow for the existence, and thus there is nothing "skeptical" about the position, rather a conclusion has been chosen that is not supported by the evidence.
Believing in evidenceless propositions requires faith, but not believing in them doesn't.
Such as believing in the absolute truth of an absence of all gods.
If you want to pursue it further we should start another thread. You could start with this No webpage found at provided URL: from wikipedia:
quote:
Agnosticism (Greek: - a-, without + ‘ gnsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims ” particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of God, gods, deities, or even ultimate reality ” is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently unknowable.
Which matches up to straggler's restrictions on the OT in Message 26:
straggler writes:
My OP was aimed at beliefs in things for which it is claimed that there can be no empirical evidence. Things that are said to be inherently non-empirical, untestable and physically unknowable. E.g. God, the soul, personal auras etc. etc. etc.
If it is not possible to know then it is not possible to logically conclude one way or the other. The logical choice left is skeptical agnosticism.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by bluegenes, posted 05-25-2008 8:30 AM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by bluegenes, posted 05-25-2008 12:20 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 54 of 138 (467945)
05-25-2008 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Straggler
05-25-2008 12:07 PM


Re: No empirical evidence
The fact we thought they had all died out is a stupid example and a stupid argument in the context of evidence for things which are inherently non-empirical. An argument that frankly Raz is beneath you.
Then I'm afraid you don't really understand my argument.
Yes such as a graviton. Indeed insufficient technology is a problem when it comes to empirical eveidence for things.
Or looking in the proper place.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Straggler, posted 05-25-2008 12:07 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 05-26-2008 5:18 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 69 of 138 (468160)
05-27-2008 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Straggler
05-26-2008 5:18 PM


Re: No empirical evidence
So what did you mean?
Part of the problem is the degree of skepticism we have for different concepts. The question is whether we have no empirical evidence of the existence of {X} today, can we use that to assume that {X} does not exist today. And the shades of gray that surround uncertainty.
The pink unicorn
The loch ness 'monster'
Thunder gods
Bigfoot
UFO's
etc.
To me the continued existence of species assumed (through lack of evidence for their continued existence) to be extinct falls into this gray area. The longer the time passes without evidence the stronger is the skepticism that they still exist. Can we ever be certain? Not in all cases - the coelacanth tells us that.
Can we rule out a pleisiosaur in loch ness? Most likely most would be happy to do so, but we can't rule out the idea that there may still be some cause for the unusual sightings. Certainly most people rule out thunder gods, as we do have a natural explanation for the phenomenon of thunder that doesn't need a gods active hand in it's distribution.
We can be highly skeptical about individual concepts but overall have low skepticism that "something unusual" is out there ... whether its rare animals or ufo's is up for grabs.
It's kind of like a lottery, you can have a high degree of skepticism that a specific ticket will win the lottery, but very low skepticism that some lottery ticket will win.
The Ivory Billed Woodpecker and the Coelacanth are ticket winners. There may be others.
Or maybe I'm just an old romantic at heart.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 05-26-2008 5:18 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Straggler, posted 05-27-2008 6:40 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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