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Author Topic:   Chicken or egg puzzle and applying intelligence
Yrreg
Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 11-21-2006


Message 1 of 25 (467949)
05-25-2008 10:20 PM


Now that mankind has known both chicken and the chicken egg, the chicken lays the chicken egg which egg then is hatched by the chicken to bring forth another chicken.
I asked my daughter which came first, the chicken or the egg, she told me she could not make up her mind.
I told her that if she would use her intelligence it should be the chicken coming first to lay the first chicken egg, and I told her why for me it's the chicken which came first and the egg afterward. Why?
I told her that according to my intelligence, if the egg appears first it has got to have a place for storage before it comes forth, and that is the chicken; thus if you open up chickens you will at least before long come across one and then another and still another, inside which there are already eggs small and big and big enough to be on the way out of the birth tract.
So, if we postulate that nature is intelligent then it must first produce a chicken which is the workshop and storage for chicken eggs and from where then these eggs will come forth.
If we postulate however that nature and intelligence are not connected unlike as in the nature of man and the intelligence of man which are connected, it will happen also that in nature or from nature or by nature the chicken will come first and then the egg from the chicken; because the experts in the theory of evolution tell us that random mutation and non-random selection ensure the rise of species, wherefore random mutation and non-random selection will opt after millions of years that the first chicken will appear of the species which we now call chicken, which in turn will lay the first chicken egg.
Talking about intelligence and man or intelligence in man, suppose we are persons with tremendous IQ and training in sciences and in technologies and in engineering skills, and we are told to produce a chicken that lays chicken eggs or chicken eggs from which come forth chickens, how should we go about the task?
And there is this very important but only one requirement or one condition imposed upon us, that when we have produced the chicken or the egg or both together at the same time, the egg should be hatched by the chicken sitting over it to hatch it, as is at present natural to chicken and egg, and not by artificial hatching.
In my case, even though I am not a guy with massive IQ and extensive training in sciences, technologies, and engineering skills, I will design first the chicken, then design a chicken egg like as in a zip file in computer file compression technology, so that the egg will be first worked out inside the chicken and stored inside the chicken, and to issue forth from the chicken, to develop into a chicken by hatching from the mother chicken once the mother chicken has laid forth the egg.
So when I have produced a viable chicken then I will produce a viable chicken egg from the chicken using this latter as a model, and a viable process for the chicken to work up a chicken egg inside itself and lay it out then hatch it.
Why not design the chicken egg first? Because I don't know yet what kind of an entity a chicken is, how then can I design a chicken egg unless I first design a chicken?
What do you guys say?
Yrreg

Replies to this message:
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Deftil
Member (Idle past 4455 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 2 of 25 (467957)
05-25-2008 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yrreg
05-25-2008 10:20 PM


I basically agree with you. The egg obviously came before the chicken because animals laid eggs before chickens exited, but as far as whether the chicken or the chicken egg came first, I say it was the chicken. Species labels are man-made and imo the first of the species would be judged by humans to be an actual chicken instead of an egg.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Perdition, posted 05-26-2008 12:13 AM Deftil has replied
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 05-26-2008 1:25 AM Deftil has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 3 of 25 (467965)
05-26-2008 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Deftil
05-25-2008 11:31 PM


That would depend on how you defined a "chicken egg." Is it based on what the egg came out of, or what the egg contained.
The first chicken was born in the egg laid by something that was 99.999999% chicken, evolutionarily speaking. Is that a chicken egg because it was the egg from which a chicken emerged?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by Yrreg, posted 05-26-2008 6:16 PM Perdition has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 25 (467971)
05-26-2008 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Deftil
05-25-2008 11:31 PM


Deftil writes:
The egg obviously came before the chicken...
This is nonsense. The egg can't hatch all by itself. It needs the chicken to turn it every so often.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 5 of 25 (467978)
05-26-2008 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yrreg
05-25-2008 10:20 PM


May I be the first to postulate an intelligent designer?

This message is a reply to:
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Deftil
Member (Idle past 4455 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 6 of 25 (467983)
05-26-2008 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Perdition
05-26-2008 12:13 AM


That would depend on how you defined a "chicken egg." Is it based on what the egg came out of, or what the egg contained.
I'm going with "what the egg came out of".
The first chicken was born in the egg laid by something that was 99.999999% chicken, evolutionarily speaking. Is that a chicken egg because it was the egg from which a chicken emerged?
I suppose that's a philosophical question that has no definitive answer.
You could say that it is a chicken egg b/c it was the egg from which a chicken emerged, but my perspective is that, for classification purposes, a chicken would be labelled as the first of the species instead of the egg from which it came. So in a sense, from one way of looking at it, the chicken came first. But there's obviously other ways of looking at it.
Edited by Deftil, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 25 (467993)
05-26-2008 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Deftil
05-26-2008 5:22 AM


thoughts on a lazy morning.
I'm going with "what the egg came out of".
I'm going with neither.
We can follow the development of the egg back in time, before being in the "what the egg came out of" the eggs were fertilized outside the body (internal fertilization and carrying offer protection of smaller resources). Can single cell organisms have sex? See the sex life of single cells
quote:
The foraminiferal life-cycle involves an alternation between haploid and diploid generations, although they are mostly similar in form. The haploid or gamont initially has a single nucleus, and divides to produce numerous gametes, which typically have two flagella. The diploid or schizont is multinucleate, and after meiosis fragments to produce new gamonts. Multiple rounds of asexual reproduction between sexual generations is not uncommon in benthic forms.[4] Foramanifera typically live for about a month.[7]
Plus what is in the egg is only the genotype, it hasn't developed within it's environment to become the phenotype yet.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
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Yrreg
Member (Idle past 4924 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 11-21-2006


Message 8 of 25 (468052)
05-26-2008 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Perdition
05-26-2008 12:13 AM


Well, that is disingenuous writing, not productive.
quote:
[From Perdition]
That would depend on how you defined a "chicken egg." Is it based on what the egg came out of, or what the egg contained.
The first chicken was born in the egg laid by something that was 99.999999% chicken, evolutionarily speaking. Is that a chicken egg because it was the egg from which a chicken emerged?
Well, that is disingenuous writing, not productive, far from being ingenious, more like quibbling.
yrreg
Edited by Yrreg, : Better choice of words.

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 Message 3 by Perdition, posted 05-26-2008 12:13 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Perdition, posted 05-26-2008 7:22 PM Yrreg has not replied
 Message 10 by Coragyps, posted 05-26-2008 7:25 PM Yrreg has not replied
 Message 11 by Wounded King, posted 05-26-2008 7:30 PM Yrreg has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 9 of 25 (468059)
05-26-2008 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yrreg
05-26-2008 6:16 PM


Re: Well, that is disingenuous writing, not productive.
I disagree. I think its very productive to have everyone using the same definition of "chicken egg" before we can decide which came first.
I could see both sides of this. The creature laying the egg wasn't quite a chicken, so the egg itself is classified based on what laid it. However, the egg is an incubation pod for the creature inside it first and foremost. That incubation pod is caring for and nurturing a chicken, so I could easily call it a chicken egg. How is that disingenuous?

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 10 of 25 (468060)
05-26-2008 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yrreg
05-26-2008 6:16 PM


Re: Well, that is disingenuous writing, not productive.
Well, that is disingenuous writing, not productive, far from being ingenious, more like quibbling.
Not really. The classic analogy is "who was the first person to speak French?" You can't tell me that answer, Yrreg, and neither can anyone else. "French" didn't appear full-blown from nothing, and neither did "chicken."

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 11 of 25 (468061)
05-26-2008 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yrreg
05-26-2008 6:16 PM


I think your daughter was right first time.
How is Perdition being any more disingenuous than you when you say ...
Why not design the chicken egg first? Because I don't know yet what kind of an entity a chicken is, how then can I design a chicken egg unless I first design a chicken?
How can you design a chicken without yet knowing what sort of entity a chicken is? Would it matter if you designed a cat by mistake, would you just call it a chicken?
What perdition asks is the exactly relevant question unless this is just supposed to be an anecdotal story about how you gave your daughter a glib and misleading answer. The question your daughter asked as you related it to us did not specify 'the chicken egg' and as has been pointed out eggs have been evident in the history of life on earth before birds were around let alone chickens.
If you choose to specify 'chicken egg' then you really have to address Perdition's point about how you define a chicken before you can answer the question one way or another.
Chicken's, chicken ancestors and their eggs evolved together all the way through, unless you can pick a first organism which you could definitively state was a chicken then neither can you say if the chicken or egg can first. If you can pick such an organism then you still have to address perdition's point as to whether a 'chicken egg' is the egg from which a chicken hatched, in this case the putative first chicken, or an egg laid by a chicken.
The answer to the original 'chicken or egg' question is clearly egg, by adding 'chicken egg' as an extra definitional factor you have only yourself to blame for bringing semantic and definitional quibbling into the discussion and it hardly seem disingenuous for perdition to point it out.
I think your daughter was showing more intelligence by not making her mind up on the question.
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 8 by Yrreg, posted 05-26-2008 6:16 PM Yrreg has not replied

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member (Idle past 151 days)
Posts: 673
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 25 (468140)
05-27-2008 1:56 PM


The real question.
The really deep and significant philosophical question here is: How does your daughter describe you to her friends?

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 13 of 25 (468143)
05-27-2008 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by AnswersInGenitals
05-27-2008 1:56 PM


Re: The real question.
Or "which came first, fathers or daughters?"

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Nutcase
Member (Idle past 5783 days)
Posts: 20
From: Brooklyn, New York
Joined: 09-14-2006


Message 14 of 25 (468274)
05-28-2008 7:25 PM


In my opinion, a chicken egg is defined as 'an egg that contains a chicken'. Just because it was produced by a non-chicken (be it from a 99.999999% chicken or artificially through bioengineering) it is still a chicken egg. For all practical purposes if you mix "an egg which contains a chicken, but produced from a non-chicken" with the "eggs which contain a chicken and were produced by a chicken" there is no way to tell which are the 'real' chicken eggs from the 'artificial' ones, since by definition the 'artificial' eggs must be 100% similar to 'real' eggs.
Similarly, if a chicken lays an egg of a duck I would call it a duck egg (I'd probably be sued if I sell duck eggs and label them as chicken eggs), just as a horse with a mule in it's embryo would have a mule embryo and not a horse or a donkey embryo.
Edited by Nutcase, : No reason given.
Edited by Nutcase, : Spelling

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 15 of 25 (468279)
05-28-2008 7:48 PM


In my opinion, before the egg hatches, the chicken must first be laid.

  
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