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Author Topic:   Is the Bible inspired by God?
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 40 (46791)
07-21-2003 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Percy
07-21-2003 6:35 PM


quote:
Living standards more likely correlate with things like the presence of natural resources and the existence of a viable market economy. Plus there is data completely counter to your proposition, such as non-fundamentalist countries like Finland having higher standards of living than the US.
1. So why did the standard of living in the land of Palestine sky rocket in a few decades under Israel after centuries of wasteland under cultures of non-biblical origin and heritage?
2. Finland has been traditionally relatively uncorrupted, having a strong Lutheran base with the Bible regarded as the highest authority for morality and society.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 07-21-2003 6:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2003 10:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 19 by nator, posted 07-21-2003 10:40 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 28 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2003 3:37 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 33 by Percy, posted 07-22-2003 9:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 40 (46792)
07-21-2003 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
07-21-2003 10:14 PM


So why did the standard of living in Israel sky rocket in a few decades under Israel after centuries of wasteland under cultures of non-biblical origin and heritage?
Aren't the Israelis mostly Jewish? What do Jewish settlers have to do with Christian Biblical Fundamentalism? The Jews are not Biblica Literalists, to my knowledge. There's certainly a large part of your bible they don't even accept.
Finland has been traditionally relatively uncorrupted, having a strong Lutheran base with the Bible regarded as the highest authority for morality and society.
Are you sure about that? Certainly Sweden doesn't hold the Bible as the highest moral authority in their country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2003 10:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 40 (46793)
07-21-2003 10:40 PM


Hi Crashfrog.
Both Israel and the Scandinavian countries have a tradition of Biblical values, the Ten Commandments being the influential catalyst in their heritage. These values have been instilled in the culture so long that it shows even for a time after secularism increases. They are socialistic but still quite highly family oriented and moral from what I can gather. Same with the Swiss.
Then too, nothing has been said about the Pagan, Communist, and Fundie Muslim nations, most of whom suffer a high poverty rate and low standard of living.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-21-2003]

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 40 (46794)
07-21-2003 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
07-21-2003 10:14 PM


quote:
1. So why did the standard of living in the land of Palestine sky rocket in a few decades under Israel after centuries of wasteland under cultures of non-biblical origin and heritage?
Like Crashfrog said...don't mostly Jews live in Israel? Are you saying that Jews are known for holding Fundamentalist Christian views?
Besides, having rich friends (USA) to help you set up house and send you money and arm you probably helped the Israelis quite a lot.
quote:
2. Finland has been traditionally relatively uncorrupted, having a strong Lutheran base with the Bible regarded as the highest authority for morality and society.
Well, they were "corrupted" into Protestantism from the Roman Catholic Church before they were Lutheran. The same happened to Sweden, and many other Western countries.
Before that the local pagan and nature religions were "corrupted" to Catholocism.
It's really all in one's perspective, isn't it?
Also, I think you need to provide some serious evidence to back up your bold assertion that the Finns consider the Bible to be "the highest authority for morality and society" in the fundamentalist, Biblical literalist way you are using it.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2003 10:14 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2003 11:06 PM nator has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 40 (46796)
07-21-2003 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nator
07-21-2003 10:40 PM


Hi Schrafinator.
quote:
Like Crashfrog said...don't mostly Jews live in Israel? Are you saying that Jews are known for holding Fundamentalist Christian views?
Jewish scriptures including the Ten Commandments are every bit as important to the Fundie Christian as the NT, though the temple worship and Levitical sacrificial atonement had been replaced by a better testament.
quote:
Well, they were "corrupted" into Protestantism from the Roman Catholic Church before they were Lutheran. The same happened to Sweden, and many other Western countries.
Well then tell me this. Were they better off or worse off under Lutheranism?
quote:
Before that the local pagan and nature religions were "corrupted" to Catholocism.
{I'm gona do it. I can't resist) IMO they then jumped from the frying pan into the fire.
quote:
Also, I think you need to provide some serious evidence to back up your bold assertion that the Finns consider the Bible to be "the highest authority for morality and society" in the fundamentalist, Biblical literalist way you are using it.
I'm the challengee. Your're the challenger. It's your turn to put up. Notice I said, "traditionally." They like the good ole US of A are sliding the slippery slope of apostacy also. We, being corrupted by secularism and materialism amid our prosperity are headed for the greater fall.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 07-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nator, posted 07-21-2003 10:40 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Coragyps, posted 07-21-2003 11:29 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 23 by doctrbill, posted 07-21-2003 11:48 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 35 by nator, posted 07-22-2003 11:06 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 36 by Percy, posted 07-22-2003 12:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 21 of 40 (46798)
07-21-2003 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
07-21-2003 1:26 PM


Buzsaw,
quote:
Likely Paul was speaking of all the sacred writings of the Jewish scriptures including the prophets ...
I'm sure he was. Those and more. Whatever he found profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness ...
And he demonstrated, by example, what that meant to him.
He quoted the Septuagint which Jews reject.
He quoted apocryphal books which Protestants reject.
He quoted Pagan poets (such heresy!).
Paul employed these scriptures as if they were inspired, utilizing them in circumstances which HE had designated appropriate to the use of inspired scripture.
Today's fundamentalists present a puzzling picture. On the one hand asserting Pauls words regarding inspiration, and on the other hand, rejecting much of the material he obviously accepted as inspired. Paul, and only Paul, was bold enough to assert such a revolutionary sentiment; namely, that everthing written is inspired by God. But then Paul was very impressed with literary talent.
quote:
The Christian compilers of the Bible canon evidently thought so, though it took them some time to sort out which of the NT should be included.
Yes, and "them" were Roman Catholic scholars weren't they?!
quote:
Bottom line is that Biblical literalist based nations are the prosperous and the blessed of the planet's cultures. To me that says something.
It says something to me too. It says you are dreaming.
Is Japan not prosperous?
Are Chinese jobs going overseas?
Is the Swiss economy in trouble?
Furthermore, the people of Israel never achieved the standard of living enjoyed by citizens of the empires which ran them over. One might safely assume that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were fundamentalists who took the Word of God literally. Yes?
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2003 1:26 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2003 12:01 AM doctrbill has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 22 of 40 (46799)
07-21-2003 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
07-21-2003 11:06 PM


Jewish scriptures including the Ten Commandments are every bit as important to the Fundie Christian...
You stone neighbors to death if they mow the yard on the Sabbath????
[This message has been edited by Coragyps, 07-21-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2003 11:06 PM Buzsaw has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 23 of 40 (46801)
07-21-2003 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
07-21-2003 11:06 PM


quote:
... the temple worship and Levitical sacrificial atonement had been replaced by a better testament.
New and Improved Judaism. The name has been changed to protect the duped.
quote:
We, being corrupted by secularism and materialism amid our prosperity are headed for the greater fall.
I find your statement almost sinister; as if anyone who enjoys a carefree life is responsible for the demise of America. Is that what you want to say?
Two thoughts:
1. - Secularism constitues relief from Religionism.
Everyone needs a break now and then.
2. - Materialism may be seen unaccompanied by prosperity but
where prosperity is found, materialism cannot be far.
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2003 11:06 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 40 (46804)
07-22-2003 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by doctrbill
07-21-2003 11:07 PM


Hi db.
quote:
He quoted the Septuagint which Jews reject.
He quoted apocryphal books which Protestants reject.
He quoted Pagan poets (such heresy!).
Paul employed these scriptures as if they were inspired, utilizing them in circumstances which HE had designated appropriate to the use of inspired scripture.
Today's fundamentalists present a puzzling picture. On the one hand asserting Pauls words regarding inspiration, and on the other hand, rejecting much of the material he obviously accepted as inspired. Paul, and only Paul, was bold enough to assert such a revolutionary sentiment; namely, that everthing written is inspired by God. But then Paul was very impressed with literary talent.
II Corinthians 11:15 Paul warns of Satans ministers and in I Timothy 4:1 he warns of those who would teach "doctrines of demons," forbidding to marry, abstaining from meats, etc. He, Jesus and most of the apostles warned of those who would teach false doctrines and an exclusive Christianity as the only way to God and eternal life. Would you mind citing the passages where he quoted or rejected the scriptures you designated and where he quoted paganism?
quote:
Yes, and "them" were Roman Catholic scholars weren't they?!
Some were. As I said to someone else, the problem with RC was not their scriptures. It was their neglect and corruption of them by their doctrines. That's why during the dark ages the popes and bishops kept the scriptures to themselves and forbad the laity to use and interpret them for themselves.
quote:
It says something to me too. It says you are dreaming.
Is Japan not prosperous?
Yah thanks to Yankee Doodle.
quote:
Are Chinese jobs going overseas?
Yah, to the Chinese slavishly impoverished sweat shops. [/quote] Is the Swiss economy in trouble?[/quote]
Traditionally its been the world's most stable culture, thanks to it's Biblical heritage.
quote:
Furthermore, the people of Israel never achieved the standard of living enjoyed by citizens of the empires which ran them over. One might safely assume that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were fundamentalists who took the Word of God literally. Yes?
Israel enjoyed the good life and prosperity so long as they followed and obeyed the precepts of their scriptures. Whenever they broke from that, God brought punishment, poverty and peril. As prophesied, they are now back in their land, prospering providentially so as to establish a Zionistic soon. Little do they realize that the coming king/messiah they've so long awaited will be the the one who rode into Jerusalem on a lowly burrow two milleniums ago to present himself as king/messiah, whom they so ignorantly rejected. This time around it will be different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by doctrbill, posted 07-21-2003 11:07 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2003 12:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 26 by doctrbill, posted 07-22-2003 1:28 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 27 by doctrbill, posted 07-22-2003 1:49 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 31 by truthlover, posted 07-22-2003 6:06 AM Buzsaw has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 40 (46807)
07-22-2003 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Buzsaw
07-22-2003 12:01 AM


Honestly I think you're going to have a hard time convincing anybody that America, or any other Western country, was founded on a tradition of Biblical literalism. For instance, America - if you think that America is founded on Biblical literalism, why then have only 4 (or so) of the Ten Commandments ever been laws?
How does "Thou shalt keep no other gods but Me" fit into a tradition of religious pluralism? How does "Thou shalt not covet" fit into a tradition of consumerism and a free market? What is the free market based on, if not coveting?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2003 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 26 of 40 (46808)
07-22-2003 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Buzsaw
07-22-2003 12:01 AM


quote:
Paul warns of Satans ministers ... he warns of those who would teach "doctrines of demons," forbidding to marry, abstaining from meats, etc. He, ... warned of those who would teach false doctrines ...
OK so far
quote:
Would you mind citing the passages where he quoted or rejected the scriptures you designated and where he quoted paganism?
Whoah there judge! You appear to be misreading my brief. Not that it surprises me much. These things are virtually NEVER shared with anyone below the rank of seminary student. I once feared for my life everytime I opened this can of worms. But now, ... worms can be helpful, ya know? They get the soil ready for sprouts like us.
Anyway ... I never said, and do not want you to think, that Paul ever rejected ANY scripture. Remember, he said, "All scripture is inspired by God."
No, as far as I can tell, he never put down on anyones literature. Prove me wrong if you can. I should hear about it if it's true, yes?
And he didn't quote paganism as such; he quoted pagan poets. See the difference? Not even liberal old me would go so far as to endorse ALL scripture as inspired and I suspect he had his limits but what they were, I don't know. Vulgarity perhaps. Graffiti?
A listing of which scriptures he quotes would be a good thing for me to have handy, but unfortunately I don't. I could build such a list based on my Greek New Testament, which has a listing of OT and other script quotes listed by book. I will skim through this quickly and see if I can satisy a bit of your requirement.
He 11.37 (he quotes from) Ascension of Isaiah 5.11-14
1 Cor 10.2 (he quotes) Baruch 4.7
Col 2.3 < Enoch 46.3
He 11.35 < 2 Maccabees 6.18-7.42 (must be a summary)
1 Tm 6.15 < 2 Maccabees 13.4
1 Tm 6.15 < 3 Maccabees 5.35
Ro 7.7 < 4 Maccabees 2.5
Ro 2.6 < Sirach 16.14
He 11.5 < Wisdom 4.10
This is just a sample. There are many others. Plus, all the other NT writers quote from the apocrypha. Hope the terse abbreviations don't bother you. That's how it appears in the book.
Both Luke and Paul quote pagan writings. Paul quotes Epimenides, de Oraculis at Titus 1:12 and Menander, Thais (218) at 1 Corinthians 15:33.
This should give you a starting point. Better yet, try to get your hands on the GNT. They are prepared for use by translators and published by pretty much every Bible Society you've ever heard of and printed by the Wurttemberg Bible Society in Stuttgart, West Germany. Well, mine is. Mine is the 1966 edition and the index of quotations is in the back, last thing in the book. I think you will be amazed at how complex these manuals are. You will believe that there are thousands of variables to consider in the matter of "simple" translation.
Happy hunting.
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2003 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 27 of 40 (46809)
07-22-2003 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Buzsaw
07-22-2003 12:01 AM


quote:
... during the dark ages the popes and bishops kept the scriptures to themselves and forbad the laity to use and interpret them for themselves.
There are always two sides to every story.
"During the dark ages, the laity was pretty much illiterate, and if not illiterate, then uneducated.
AND ...
Bibles were not cheap in those days. Think about a miniature handmade copy of the world's most ancient library. Think about ten thousand man hours of tedious labor by highly skilled professionals. Think about azure, vermillion, burnt umber and titanium white. Think about gold leaf illumination by world famous artists. Think about a million dollar project. Think about the single most valuable article in the monestary. Think about how it puts your town on the map. And this treasure you think we should loan to a bunch of dirt-grubbing, half-civilized, illiterate sharecropping ingrates?
Aren't you glad Bibles are dirt cheap now? Why you can hardly give them away! And still, almost no one understands a word it says.
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 07-22-2003 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by truthlover, posted 07-22-2003 5:21 AM doctrbill has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 28 of 40 (46811)
07-22-2003 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
07-21-2003 10:14 PM


Israel
If Israel is an example then :
Why are the benefits going to Jews rather than Christian Arabs ?
Why are Jews who mostly reject the NT entirely more "Christian" than Muslims who recognse Jesus as a Prophet.
And while we are on the subject of Muslims, what about the first few centuries of Islamic history ? Why all the successes ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 07-21-2003 10:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 29 of 40 (46827)
07-22-2003 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by doctrbill
07-22-2003 1:49 AM


Hi, Bill. I was intrigued by your use of "every Scripture." The idea that Paul or anyone else considers every writing inspired of God seems a bit much, and I was shocked you or anyone else would suggest it. However, I felt better when you said "even he must have had his limits."
No, as far as I can tell, he never put down on anyones literature. Prove me wrong if you can. I should hear about it if it's true, yes?
Well, if anything written is literature, then this is easy, as he told the Thessalonians (2 Thess 2:2) not to be misled by letters that seemed to be from him.
I assume you'd agree, too, that any literature produced by those persons pushing circumcision would have been rejected by him as well. Correct? After all, he said he wouldn't put up with such teachings even for an hour.
Oh, and to add to your list, the "sawn in half" guy of Hebrews 11 was Isaiah, from "The Martyrdom of Isaiah." 2 Tim 3:8's Jannes and Jambres are from a writing called "Jannes and Jambres," no longer extant. (I realize the pastoral epistles are classified as doubtful, as far as Pauline authorship, but so is Hebrews, and you used that.)
And, while it's not Paul, Jude not only quotes First Enoch, but he references his quote and assigns authorship to the original Enoch. To this day, the Book of Enoch is part of the canon of the Ethiopian Orthodox church. Strangely enough, no fundamentalist I know agrees with Jude that Enoch wrote it, nor that the Book of Enoch is worth quoting or reading, and yet they consider Jude the Word of God. Odd.
I didn't know several of the sources you listed. Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by doctrbill, posted 07-22-2003 1:49 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by doctrbill, posted 07-22-2003 11:06 AM truthlover has not replied

truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 30 of 40 (46834)
07-22-2003 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Brian
07-21-2003 1:05 PM


Hi, Brian. Am I missing something in your description of Jesus' trial. Here's my thoughts.
Thirdly, are the contradictions and historical impossibilies in the accounts, the narratives have 'fiction' written all over them. for example, why was Jesus tried without witnesses, by Jewish law you were entitled to two witnesses?
I understood that there were many witnesses, and they contradicted themselves. I found Matthew 26:60-62 real quick, which said that, then said they finally got two to agree that Jesus had said he could destroy the temple and raise it up in three days.
Also, you couldnt be tried on your own testimony. The sanhedrin could only meet in the Temple and they meet could not meet at night. It was also Holy Week, another time that the Sanhedrin couldnt meet.
If Jesus was the problem that the Gospels said he was, then why would these rules stop powerful leaders from taking care of the problem? Maybe they couldn't meet during the holy week, but the holy week was also important enough to urge them to action of it was being thoroughly disrupted. And it seems to me that hundreds of people paving the streets with palm branches and declaring Jesus Messiah is a pretty serious disruption requiring pretty serious action.
I don't think rules about when not to meet would stop the Sanhedrin or any other leaders from taking care of such a problem.
The list goes on and on, why is there no record of the 'tradition' of the Romans releasing a prisoner at Passover?
This seems to carry more weight. I've always wondered, though, why anyone would make up something like that. It seems awful unlikely to me that the whole story is made up; i.e., that Jesus is a completely fictional character, so why add something like the Barabbas story? What's to be gained? Surely calling for Jesus' crucifixion would have sufficiently shown that the Jews rejected him, if that was the purpose. Adding Barabbas hardly makes them to have rejected him more.
For example, Luke mentions the Barabbas story, but in Acts, on the day of Pentecost, he doesn't have Peter bringing up Barabbas at all. He just accuses the crowd of crucifying Jesus (Acts 2:23), without having to bring up Barabbas.
So, I understand it's strange we have no record of releasing a prisoner at Passover, but why would someone make that up? Isn't it just as likely that it was done only a few years, that it happened in a small, relatively insignificant land, and no one mentioned it? Do the writings of the Jews discuss crucifixion and prisoners under Roman rule so much that it should be discussed in their writings even if it only happened a few years?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Brian, posted 07-21-2003 1:05 PM Brian has not replied

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