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Author Topic:   The infinite space of the Universe
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 106 of 380 (468074)
05-26-2008 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ICANT
05-26-2008 4:43 PM


Re: Where the universe ends
Well, when changes of states occur, there is a loss in each change - else we can have perpetual energy for naught. If we keep altering mass to energy, or vice verse, at some point this process will cease yielding energy and/or mass.
From here one can then say, it becomes indestructable particles of matter in the universe, thus never fully destroyed - but this is a premise common for all things, and would also negate death. The point here is, there is no resemblence anymore to either energy or mass anymore after all loss has been effected by change of states.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ICANT, posted 05-26-2008 4:43 PM ICANT has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3667 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 107 of 380 (468077)
05-26-2008 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Agobot
05-26-2008 5:27 PM


Re: Where the universe ends
It appears so from the subjective sub-plot position. It may be viewed differently if we had access to the big picture and consider the whole gamut of things, which is beyond our caperbilities. When we see things retrospectively, it can make sense. Beware what you wish for - it may come true and be not what you really aspired to.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 380 (468119)
05-27-2008 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Agobot
05-26-2008 5:17 PM


Re: What is space?
Let's see what your hypothesis is about it? What exactly is empty space if it's completely void of matter and particles? Nothingness?
That would be a perfect vacuum, but that's never been observed.
Something non-material that has no measurable or observable qualities, yet its existence is non-disputed and unquestioned by us?
Just do some homework, man.
Here is the wiki page on space and the wiki page on outer space.
Read, learn, come back with questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Agobot, posted 05-26-2008 5:17 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 109 of 380 (468127)
05-27-2008 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by New Cat's Eye
05-27-2008 10:12 AM


Re: What is space?
Catholic Scientist, have you even looked at the links you provided? I am sure you have not, as straight from the links you can see:
"An issue of philosophical debate is whether space is an ontological entity itself, or simply a conceptual framework humans need to think (and talk) about the world. Another way to frame this is to ask, "Can space itself be measured, or is space part of the measurement system?" The same debate applies also to time, and an important formulation in both areas was given by Immanuel Kant."
If you think you know what exactly empty space is, you got to see a doctor. Read links you provided, LEARN and come back with more knowledge. Please. And stop playing the wise man that knows everything that mankind has not discovered yet. Thus you make a laughing stock of yourself. Look beneath the surface of things. Look deeper than perfect vacuum(empty space). What is perfect vacuum? Nothingness? Does nothingness exist? Now post a link to the wikipedia again.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2008 10:12 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2008 12:32 PM Agobot has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 380 (468128)
05-27-2008 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Agobot
05-27-2008 12:07 PM


Re: What is space?
So you're going to quote mine from the PHILOSOPHY section and post it in the science thread.
You can go rub salt in your ass, for all I care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 12:07 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 111 of 380 (468130)
05-27-2008 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by New Cat's Eye
05-27-2008 12:32 PM


Re: What is space?
Straigth from the links you provided, wise man:
"Among physicists and philosophers there is disagreement regarding whether space is itself an entity, or is part of a conceptual framework.[5]"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2008 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2008 12:52 PM Agobot has not replied
 Message 113 by cavediver, posted 05-27-2008 1:50 PM Agobot has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 380 (468131)
05-27-2008 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Agobot
05-27-2008 12:40 PM


Re: What is space?
Straigth from the links you provided, wise man:
"Among physicists and philosophers there is disagreement regarding whether space is itself an entity, or is part of a conceptual framework.[5]"
So fucking what?
If you want to know what are the theories about what space is, then fucking do your homework. Read up on the subject. Learn.
Being an asshat on internet forums isn't going to help much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 12:40 PM Agobot has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 113 of 380 (468139)
05-27-2008 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Agobot
05-27-2008 12:40 PM


Re: What is space?
Straigth from the links you provided, wise man:
"Among physicists and philosophers there is disagreement regarding whether space is itself an entity, or is part of a conceptual framework.[5]"
And philosophers would have exactly what to do with this? Those of us who work in space-time physics do not consult philosophers, in much the same way as we do not consult dictionaries. Both will often consult us to ask us what WE think (metaphorically of course in the case of most dictionaries.) We have a fairly good handle on the nature of space-time. What underlies space-time is the current work in progress. Questions of the 'nothingness' of space, of space being merely a place to 'be', and of how space can 'expand' merely reveal the ignorance of the questioner and their unfamiliarity with the subject matter.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 12:40 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 3:20 PM cavediver has replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 114 of 380 (468149)
05-27-2008 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by cavediver
05-27-2008 1:50 PM


Re: What is space?
My bad, i forgot you were smarter than the scientists at NASA(them poor souls had the nerve to claim that the universe is flat). If you are that smart as you think you are, you'd be able to answer a very simple question - so, what is absolute vacuum in physical terms?
Hint - empty 3d space would not be a good answer.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by cavediver, posted 05-27-2008 1:50 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 116 by cavediver, posted 05-27-2008 4:46 PM Agobot has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 380 (468151)
05-27-2008 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Agobot
05-27-2008 3:20 PM


Re: What is space?
Nobody's gonna talk to you if you're just going to be a dick.
You can find out what an absolute vaccum is in the wiki thread on vacuums that I linked too upthread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 3:20 PM Agobot has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 116 of 380 (468152)
05-27-2008 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Agobot
05-27-2008 3:20 PM


Re: What is space?
My bad, i forgot you were smarter than the scientists at NASA(them poor souls had the nerve to claim that the universe is flat).
Ah, it's not a good start, is it? You refer to a short *layman* description of curvature cosmology at the NASA site. I give you the correct understanding behind this, and you reply as above. So you are wasting my time already. Why would I want to waste any more on you?
You ask 'what is absolute vacuum in physical terms?' - I have to reply matrix style that you need to understand your question before you can understand the answer. What do you mean by 'physical terms'? What do you mean by 'absolute'? And what do you even mean by 'vacuum'?
Thank you for attempting to give me a hint. I can assure you, I don't really need one. And your sugggestion of 'empty 3d space' as a possible, if incorrect, answer is a bit bizarre.
Ok, for those with an actual interest in 'an' answer, the problem is what fields are we considering for this vacuum? If we're just talking about the 'basic' linear matter/force fields (quantum electrodynamics- i.e. photons & electrons) with a flat background metric (space-time), then we have the simple quantum vacuum state of the fields. There are no real particles in the vacuum state, but the fields are certainly not zero valued as is demonstrated by the Casimir Effect (by reducing the field vacumm fluctuations below that of the true vacuum).
This simple picture grows vastly more complicated when we hit the non-linear fields of Quantum ChromoDynamics and gravitation - their vacuum structures form global non-trivial backgrounds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 3:20 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 5:03 PM cavediver has not replied
 Message 121 by Straggler, posted 05-27-2008 7:11 PM cavediver has replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 117 of 380 (468153)
05-27-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by cavediver
05-27-2008 4:46 PM


Re: What is space?
Absolute vacuum is space completely devoid of particles. This of course is not possible, so absolute vacuum does not exist(there will always be massless wave-like particles emerging and disappearing). But this causes a paradox as nothing/nothingness does not exist as well. It's a man-made concept. It is easier in casual conversation to say that an empty cup has nothing in it, yet we know when we look deeper that the cup is full of air molecules. In essence a black hole is a nothing because it shatters our dimension and so it could perhaps be the heart of nothingness. I would say nothing(absolute vacuum) does exist, but perhaps only in the infinity of a black hole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by cavediver, posted 05-27-2008 4:46 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2008 5:14 PM Agobot has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 380 (468154)
05-27-2008 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Agobot
05-27-2008 5:03 PM


Re: What is space?
In essence a black hole is a nothing because it shatters our dimension and so it could perhaps be the heart of nothingness. I would say nothing(absolute vacuum) does exist, but perhaps only in the infinity of a black hole.
Nope. Black Holes have mass.
Absolute vacuum is space completely devoid of particles. This of course is not possible, so absolute vacuum does not exist(there will always be massless wave-like particles emerging and disappearing). But this causes a paradox as nothing/nothingness does not exist as well. It's a man-made concept.
What's wrong with absolute nothingness being an impossibility? How is it a "paradox"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 5:03 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Agobot, posted 05-27-2008 5:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 05-27-2008 8:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 119 of 380 (468155)
05-27-2008 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by New Cat's Eye
05-27-2008 5:14 PM


Re: What is space?
quote:
In essence a black hole is a nothing because it shatters our dimension and so it could perhaps be the heart of nothingness. I would say nothing(absolute vacuum) does exist, but perhaps only in the infinity of a black hole.
quote:
Nope. Black Holes have mass.
The fact that black holes do have mass does not rule out the possibility that they constitute true "nothingness".
quote:
What's wrong with absolute nothingness being an impossibility? How is it a "paradox"?
If the word nothingness does not signify anything meaningful, then there is no need for such a word. However, the word can be found in every dictionary and that is a paradox.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2008 5:14 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 125 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-28-2008 10:04 AM Agobot has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 120 of 380 (468163)
05-27-2008 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Agobot
05-27-2008 5:50 PM


Re: What is space?
If the word nothingness does not signify anything meaningful, then there is no need for such a word. However, the word can be found in every dictionary and that is a paradox.
True nothingness is a concept. Not a paradox.
In the everyday world nothingness rarely corresponds to true nothingness and nor does it need to.
When we say "There is nothing there" we don't actually mean empty spacetime in day to day use.
Anyway there are many things that are concepts that do not strictly exist.
There is no such thing as a "true" circle. It is a mathematical construct. By your definition does that mean circles do not exist in reality? Likewise spheres? Should these terms be removed from dictionaries on the basis that they do not exist?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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