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Author Topic:   Why was there a need for a global flood?
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 1 of 68 (468326)
05-29-2008 12:52 AM


In the topic "http://EvC Forum: Does the evidence support the Flood? (attn: DwarfishSquints) -->EvC Forum: Does the evidence support the Flood? (attn: DwarfishSquints)"
codegate stated:
In fact, why are we worried at all about where the water came from? Why didn't God just create it? Certainly would be a lot simpler, wouldn't it?
It would have been simpler if "God" had simply stated all animals except Noah's family and one pair of the unclean & 7 pairs of the clean will now die. Why go through the rigamarole of a global flood. If a person believes in let there be light then why not the above. If all that is meant in creation is magic let it be all.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added that "?" to the topic title.

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 68 (468330)
05-29-2008 1:14 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Wumpini
Member (Idle past 5763 days)
Posts: 229
From: Ghana West Africa
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 3 of 68 (468407)
05-29-2008 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluescat48
05-29-2008 12:52 AM


It is an Example of Salvation through Faith and Obedience
If we really want to know why there was a need for a global flood, we need to look in the Bible.
____________________________________________________________________
The Old Testament was written for our example - Read 1 Cor 10:11-12
quote:
1 Corinthians 10:11-12 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
___________________________________________________________________
From the beginning God established Law (The Law of Sin and Death)
.......Read Genesis Chapters 1 through 3 (Creation - Link is below)
Genesis 1 NKJV - The History of Creation - In the - Bible Gateway
.......Especially read Genesis 2:16-17
quote:
Genesis 2:16-17 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
.......Then read Eze 18:20, Is 59:1-2, Rom 3:23; 6:23
quote:
Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
quote:
Isaiah 59:1-2 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.
quote:
Romans 3:23 ... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,...
quote:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
__________________________________________________________________
Through FAITH in Jesus Christ that results in Obedience, we can overcome the Law of Sin and Death (Romans 8:1-2)
quote:
Romans 8:1-2 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
...... Read Genesis Chapters 6 through 9 (The Flood - Link is below)
Genesis 6; NKJV - The Wickedness and Judgment of Man - Bible Gateway;
...... Especially read Genesis 6:22
quote:
Genesis 6:22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.
...... Then read Hebrews 11 (espec. 11:6-7); Eph 2:8-10; 1 Pet 3:20-22
quote:
Hebrews 11:6-7 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
quote:
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
quote:
1 Peter 3:20-22 ... who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
___________________________________________________________________
God is teaching us through Noah and the Flood the type of Faith that is necessary for Salvation.
___________________________________________________________________
A Global Flood with extreme consequences drives home this message that we must Believe and Obey God (Heb 11:6-7).
quote:
Hebrews 11:6-7 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
___________________________________________________________________
It is the Most Important TRUTH that anyone will ever learn.
quote:
John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
That is FREE from the Law of Sin and Death.
quote:
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
____________________________________________________________________
Thanks

"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be." - Charles Sanders Pierce

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 4 of 68 (468409)
05-29-2008 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Wumpini
05-29-2008 9:35 AM


Re: It is an Example of Salvation through Faith and Obedience
God is teaching us through Noah and the Flood the type of Faith that is necessary for Salvation.
By killing off the entire population of the world bar Noah + close family By inflicting such incomprehensible terror upon every young child on the planet??? I guess we can never accuse God of doing things by halves...

This message is a reply to:
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Wumpini
Member (Idle past 5763 days)
Posts: 229
From: Ghana West Africa
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 5 of 68 (468424)
05-29-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by cavediver
05-29-2008 10:04 AM


Re: It is an Example of Salvation through Faith and Obedience
cavediver writes:
By killing off the entire population of the world bar Noah + close family
The Bible says:
quote:
Genesis 6:5-6 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
It saddened God to see how wicked the people had become. It kind of makes you think a lot of how the earth is today. The thoughts of men's hearts were evil continually. God, who is the Creator, did not like the choices that His creation had made. Therefore, because of their disobedience mankind deserved Judgment and Punishment. That is Justice.
cavediver writes:
By inflicting such incomprehensible terror upon every young child on the planet???
You have no idea what kind of terror every young child on the planet went through at the time of the flood. You say incomprehensible terror. The Scriptures say nothing about these children experiencing terror.
Let us think about this for a moment though. The entire world was wicked and evil continually. Where does that put children? Is it not possible that their life was already a living terror? Small children being abused sexually. Could that be part of this wickedness? Child sacrifice. Could that be part of this wickedness that permeated the world? Think of every way an innocent child could be abused, and then apply that all over the earth. And not only abused, what did the Scriptures say? These evil thoughts were continual. I do not believe that it would have been a very nice place for a child to live on this earth during the days before the flood.
Now let us suppose that God wanted to take that child to Heaven. A wonderful place where there is no evil. Is it wicked for God to take a child out of an evil place and put them into a wonderful place? I think that is Merciful. I think that is Loving. Those children were much better off after the flood than before.
Now the same is not true of the adults. That is where you can talk about incomprehensible terror. That is the Judgment of God. You see the Scriptures tell us about the terror that these people will suffer for eternity in HELL. The least of their terror was the flood. The little discomfort that they felt drowning during the flood will not even compare to the incomprehensible terror they will endure for eternity. That is Justice. That is because God is Just.
God gives everyone a choice. We have a choice right now. We all know that we do. We can choose to believe in God or disbelieve. We can choose to obey God or disobey God. God has no choice. He must punish those who disobey. That is Justice, and God is Just.
So, when the time comes for Judgment (and I know that many of you believe this is a fairy tale), God will give you what you deserve.
Let us think logically about this. If there is a God, and you have a choice, and you reject that God, then what do you think you deserve. I can assure you that there is not going to be an opportunity to debate the Judgment. It will be automatic.
What could we say anyway on that Judgment Day? We could say that we did not know about God? That is a lie. We could say that everyone else was rejecting God. Okay, so you get the same punishment that everyone else gets that rejects God. We could say that science has determined that God does not exist. Sorry, science was wrong. What could we possibly say to change God's Judgment of ourselves on that day? NOTHING!
The same is true of those on the day of the Flood. They knew God existed. They chose to turn from God. They were punished and they will continue to be punished for eternity. That is Justice.
You see there was a need for the Flood. We need the lesson of the Flood today. That lesson is that there are two paths we can choose. We have the choice. One of those paths requires Faith and Obedience in the God of the Bible, and it leads to Salvation (Just like Noah). Very few people will be on that path. The other path requires nothing. If you do nothing and believe nothing then you are automatically on that path. You do not have to be a bad person. All you have to do is Not Believe in the God of the Bible. And that path leads to destruction and eternal punishment like those who were destroyed in the Flood.
It is definitely something to think about. Eternity is a long, long time. When this universe is gone, then eternity will only be beginning.
Thanks
Edited by Wumpini, : spelling

"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be." - Charles Sanders Pierce

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 6 of 68 (468426)
05-29-2008 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wumpini
05-29-2008 11:29 AM


Re: It is an Example of Salvation through Faith and Obedience
God, who is the Creator, did not like the choices that His creation had made.
This is the sort of assertion I have a hard time wrapping my head around. If God is omniscient and knows the future, then even before he made Adam, he would have known about this necessity. He would have known that he would need to effectively start over with his little "humanity" experiment.
Now, when a human sets up a prototype or an experiment, and after running it for a while, finds that there is a problem, or the design wasn't as good as they would have liked, it is quite logical to take what seems to be working, throw the rest out and try again. In fact, that's the way most of our great inventions came about.
I don't think we can say the same thing about an omniscient god, however. It's sort of the same as our inventor making something he knows won't work, spending time on it, but not doing anything to effectively fix the error, and letting it run until it starts to set his house on fire. It would definitely make sense, at that point, to toss the invention out and start again, but I would hardly blame the invention for starting a fire, when it was obvious to the inventor that that was a distinct possibility. When you add in the fact that God KNEW for certain how his experiment would go, it seems to me that the blame for the wickedness of humanity rests solely at his feet, and all those lives that were brought into the world only to be snuffed out are a serious breach of ethics on his part.

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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 7 of 68 (468427)
05-29-2008 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wumpini
05-29-2008 11:29 AM


Re: It is an Example of Salvation through Faith and Obedience
You have no idea what kind of terror every young child on the planet went through at the time of the flood. You say incomprehensible terror. The Scriptures say nothing about these children experiencing terror.
OK
Let us think about this for a moment though. The entire world was wicked and evil continually. Where does that put children? Is it not possible that their life was already a living terror? Small children being abused sexually. Could that be part of this wickedness? Child sacrifice. Could that be part of this wickedness that permeated the world? Think of every way an innocent child could be abused, and then apply that all over the earth
Did the scriptures say this?
I am not saying that you are right or wrong only that you seem to be very specific with regard to what the scriptures say in response to Cavediver's point regarding the horrors of a flood whilst seeming fairly speculative when it comes to your own interpretation of the horrors inflicted on children due to mans wickedness.
It just seems inconsistent. That is my only point.
In your opinion are we due another flood (or another similar variation of punishment) based on the current wickedness of man?
Do you really think this likely?

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 Message 5 by Wumpini, posted 05-29-2008 11:29 AM Wumpini has replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 68 (468432)
05-29-2008 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Wumpini
05-29-2008 9:35 AM


posting tip
Hey Wumpini,
I see you put in the long underscore thingies like this:
____________________________________________________________________
If you put in the HTML code:
<hr>
you get a:

hit the peek button if you need to see the coding.

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 9 of 68 (468450)
05-29-2008 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Straggler
05-29-2008 11:42 AM


Re: Flood
Straggler writes:
In your opinion are we due another flood
There will never be another global flood.
Things will be much worse.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 10 of 68 (468456)
05-29-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by bluescat48
05-29-2008 12:52 AM


Re-Posibilities
bluescat48 writes:
It would have been simpler if "God" had simply stated all animals except Noah's family and one pair of the unclean & 7 pairs of the clean will now die.
That is what He said. He just did it with water 120 years after the warnings began.
Lets examine for a moment what took place.
God told Noah to build an ark and gave him the dimensions. That was a huge endevor. I drew the ark to find out about the space in the ark for another thread with my Chief Architect program. I found that I could put over 15 acres of storage floor in the ark.
It took Noah 120 years to build this ark. That would take a lot of man power and materials.
That means many of the people 3 generations could have worked on the ark. Noah warned the people for 120 years anyone could have come aboard the ark until God shut the door. But no one chose to do so.
It wasn't that God did not give them a chance to repent.
Now if God had done as you suggested none of these people would have had the opportunity to choose. You say but none of them chose to repent. And God knew they would not. But God gave them the opportunity just the same. Just like He gives people the opportunity today.
bluescat48 writes:
Why go through the rigamarole of a global flood.
How many people talk about the Flood?
Compare that to, How many people talk about an extinction event?
His reason could have been so we would talk about it. That way it could be an example.
bluescat48 writes:
If a person believes in let there be light then why not the above.
If you are asking could God have spoke and everything fall dead except all those on the ark. Sure He could. Then He would have had to dispose of all the dead bodies. Now with the flood all these bodies became fertilizer for new growth and other things.
I kinda get the feeling God knew what He was doing. After all He stood at the beginning and viewed the end just as He does today.
bluescat48 writes:
If all that is meant in creation is magic let it be all.
This magic you keep refering to, is it like a magician waving a magic wand over a hat and producing a bunny rabbit.
Or are you talking about something appearing from an absence of anything and it creating the universe as we see it today.
God does not use magic.
He made the laws and they obey Him.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by bluescat48, posted 05-29-2008 12:52 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 11 of 68 (468467)
05-29-2008 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Perdition
05-29-2008 11:37 AM


Re: It is an Example of Salvation through Faith and Obedience
God, who is the Creator, did not like the choices that His creation had made.
Perdition writes:
This is the sort of assertion I have a hard time wrapping my head around. If God is omniscient and knows the future, then even before he made Adam, he would have known about this necessity. He would have known that he would need to effectively start over with his little "humanity" experiment.
What's so hard to get your head around?
If God doesn't see into the future (because he is 'outside' time, meaning that there is no such thing as future to see into - from his perspective) then one way to know about things that happen in (what we conceive of as) the future (because we are 'inside' time) is by observing them - now.
That is to say, all points in time; our past, our present and our future would all be now to God. Seeing as he is infinitely big, he would have an infinite amount of eyes with which to view every moment and micromoment in time. Every frame in the whole show, from start to finish being viewed simultaneously...now
Which raises entertaining thoughts as to infinite spannering on the works. We fantasise about time machines and about going back to change something in the past so as to immediately alter the situation at present. But there is no reason why God can't do the same - any number of points in time being spannered on at the same time. The consequences of those moments being spannered on would instantaneously alter all 'future' moments.
We couldn't detect it of course. What we consider to be our fixed past would only be the result of whatever route we happen to have arrived at our present. Change the route to the present and we'll find ourselves at a different present. Perhaps rips in the Matrix could appear - from whence stories of reincarnation
-
He would have known that he would need to effectively start over with his little "humanity" experiment.
I'm not sure anything went wrong with the experiment. Man was created with an ability to choose. Man choose. That's a success.
If Gods plan was to create beings who could choose to spend eternity with him or eternity without him (the fundamental basis of any good relationship being choice for/against) - and that is what he ends up with: some with him and some without him then I can't see that his plan hasn't worked according to plan.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 12 of 68 (468471)
05-29-2008 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
05-29-2008 3:00 PM


Re: Re-Posibilities
How many people talk about the Flood?
My point exactly. Talk about.
If by chance a flood were to have occured at ~5000 years ago and is talked about today, said flood would have to be greater than any previous known flood.
So lets return to the period in question. Where is the civilization who is affected by the above flood? The answer is Mesopotamia. The Flood story in the Bible was obviously carried to Canaan by Abraham. Where was Abraham from? Ur, of the Chaldees, which was at the area of the delta of the Tigris & Euphrates Rivers. Now in the mindset of the people of the time what was the whole earth? It would appear that what was considered the earth was Mesopotamia, the Persian Gulf and the surrounding land. Thus a flood covering the entire area of Mesopotamia would be considered covering the earth. Why a flood? If a flood story which starts out in Mesopotamia 5000 years ago, is carried to Canaan by Abraham and told to the following generation it would most likely be changed as is the normal case with the spoken word. The Flood became a total destruction of life save for those in the Ark.
Thus the reasoning which starts as a severe flood, becomes a global flood do to the character of those first telling, then transcribing the story. Why does God need a flood, He doesn't, any more than he, if he exists, needs humans trying to say what he did or did not do.
Edited by bluescat48, : spelling & diction

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 13 of 68 (468473)
05-29-2008 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by iano
05-29-2008 4:55 PM


Re: It is an Example of Salvation through Faith and Obedience
If God doesn't see into the future (because he is 'outside' time, meaning that there is no such thing as future to see into - from his perspective) then one way to know about things that happen in (what we conceive of as) the future (because we are 'inside' time) is by observing them - now.
I understand this, I use the word "future" because it is the colloquial word we use in our temporal existence. So, we're left with two possibilities:
1) God, seeing what is happening at one time, can change something in another time in order to make a bad situation not happen, or
2) God can't affect what we call the future because it's all happening at the same time to him.
If option one is right, then we're still stuck with the situation that God knew wickedness would overrun the planet, requiring a global flood, and yet he did nothing to try and change that outcome, thereby consigning all those people to death. In my mind, that is highly unethical. We don't even let clinicians do human trials if there is a possibility of harm to the people involved.
If option two is right, then we're left with an impotent God. One who created because he had to, and has to no way to affect the creation. In other words, we have a purely Deistic Universe, where God winds the clock and then things play out according to Natural Laws. This is hardly the God of the Bible.
I'm not sure anything went wrong with the experiment. Man was created with an ability to choose. Man choose. That's a success.
If Gods plan was to create beings who could choose to spend eternity with him or eternity without him (the fundamental basis of any good relationship being choice for/against) - and that is what he ends up with: some with him and some without him then I can't see that his plan hasn't worked according to plan.
Ok, if that was his Plan, then it was a success. People chose not to be with God. But apparantly God wasn't happy with that outcome, so he wiped everything out and hit the 'Reset' button. So, he's OK with post facto deck stacking, but not changing the intial conditions so he wouldn't have to destroy all those lives, both human and animal. Again, that leaves us with what I would consider an unethical God.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 14 of 68 (468517)
05-29-2008 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ICANT
05-29-2008 3:00 PM


Re: Re-Posibilities
anyone could have come aboard the ark until God shut the door.
Chapter and verse?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ICANT, posted 05-29-2008 3:00 PM ICANT has replied

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 15 of 68 (468578)
05-30-2008 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Coragyps
05-29-2008 9:22 PM


Re-Posibilities
Coragyps writes:
Chapter and verse?
Gene 6:3 (KJV) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
God gave man 120 years that His spirit strove with man before the flood.
2Pet 2:5 (KJV) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Peter said Noah preached. So while he was building the ark what was he preaching?
I preach a very similar message today. You have to be in the ark of Christ or you will perish with the Devil and his angels.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Coragyps, posted 05-29-2008 9:22 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
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