Are theistic evolutionists really IDers?

To clarify, let's start with Christians that believe God created the universe with the intent for man to evolve.I think such theistic evos are clearly IDers. They believe an Intelligent Designer (God) created the universe, and they have accepted teleological thinking in believing such a creation occured with the intent to create/evolve mankind.I think other theistic evos are likewise IDers, whether they realize or not, because they believe there is an Intelligent Force behind the creation and existence of the universe, but perhaps they are not teleological and think, for example, God perhaps didn't even know what would happen. Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Per Admins idea in message 3, final sentence/paragraph "hidden".

The topic is not about the fact ID theories espoused by the Discovery Institute are different than theistic evos. That is obvious. The issues raised are:Acceptance of teleology if theistic evos believe God intended to create man.And for others, The theistic evo believes God was and maybe is the active agent in causing the universe to come into being and perhaps even the causal agent in sustaining it. That's a clear belief in an Intelligent Designer regardless of the fact they believe the Intelligent Force/Designer used evolution as it's means to create new life forms. As such, it is puzzling to see this very concept ridiculed by theistic evos as if it is non-scientific, and yet they themselves embrace the concept of an Intelligent Designer as causal.

Why is it clouding the issue to point out the obvious? Theistic evos are in some sense creationists.

So are you saying that it is non-scientific to be theistic evolutionist? That the theistic aspect of their beliefs here are just a faith statement and not real science?

No, theistic evos are IDers. They believe an Intelligent Force/Designer aka God created the universe. They believe God designed/created the universe. It's a clear belief in an Intelligent Designer.What part of that isn't clear?Edited by randman, : No reason given.

It seems to me you are simply evading the thread topic issues raised in the OP. Some YECers say Old Earth Creationists are no friends to creationism. So what?Edited by randman, : No reason given.

Why not address the points in the OP? Theistic evos claim an Intelligent Designer created the universe. Is this a scientific view?

Is it a scientific view to claim God created the universe or not?Moreover, if theistic evos believe God created the universe, on what basis do they believe the same Intelligent Designer would never intervene in the universe or in the formation of life on earth? Is it just the faith of theistic evos to insist that God could only be effective in direct intervention at the beginning?

Conversely, one could argue that there are no gaps at all, but that God is involved in every process. I think this is a point many misunderstand about Christian theology. From God's perspective, natural and spiritual mechanisms are all subordinate to Him from the Christian perspective. The idea is God upholds all mechanisms. It's not the God of gaps thinking many believe it is.But I hear ya.......IDers point to weaknesses as they seem them in evo theory aka gaps and use that as evidence for God filling that whereas theistic evos just have one big gap at the beginning. But a more complete look from a theological perspective is that God is in control of it all. That is what I am claiming. It would be interesting to see if theistic evos view their belief as science or a faith perspective.Edited by randman, : No reason given.

You'd have to ask them.

So you have no objections in principle to looking for evidence God has intervened? That's fully acceptable for science and not a threat to science as so many claim?The only issue, I presume, is whether existing theory can explain all of the evidence which is a debate for other threads?

It's interesting that the issue boils down then to a theological position. I think you can believe in a measure of free will and an omniscient and omnipresent God, but that's for a different thread and a pretty complex issue. You are right that it's similar to this issue.The big problem with thinking God didn't know what would happen is that if you believe God exists apart from space-time, He can already see what's happening and to take it a step further, He could intervene and change it, in fact,.....perhaps "electing" some for salvation. But maybe we better save this line of thinking for a different thread.

Problem is we can test computer science with actual products instead of hypothesizing about the past.

So theistic evos believe the evidence supports the idea of no Designer but believe the universe was created by God anyway?

Yea, but in this case theistic evos believe God designed the universe. Now, they may or may not think He intended all the life forms and man to come into being, but the design of the universe is His deliberate creation.