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Author Topic:   The infinite space of the Universe
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 181 of 380 (468900)
06-02-2008 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Buzsaw
06-02-2008 8:38 AM


Re: Is it infinite?
Unless you think I mean the bar will weld its meeting ends into a continuos piece like two rolls of Certs breath mints banged together, which I don't, then the property you seek is called straightness.
AbE: Sorry, that's too glib even for me.
Straight, universally, is a relative term in the same way level is globally. A level brick wall will rejoin itself if built all the way around the Earth. For the bar to be straight it must follow the curvature of the Universe to rejoin itself.
Edited by lyx2no, : To be uncharacteristically less dick-like

Kindly
A mind changed against its will is of the same opinion still.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 06-02-2008 8:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Buzsaw, posted 06-03-2008 9:03 PM lyx2no has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 182 of 380 (468937)
06-02-2008 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Buzsaw
06-02-2008 8:38 AM


Re: Is it infinite?
You still haven't identified the properties of a straight rigid bar which render it capable of rejoining itself.
It isn't any proerty of the bar - it is the property of the space in which the bar resides.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Buzsaw, posted 06-02-2008 8:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Agobot, posted 06-02-2008 3:59 PM cavediver has replied
 Message 209 by Buzsaw, posted 06-03-2008 9:14 PM cavediver has replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 183 of 380 (468956)
06-02-2008 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by cavediver
06-02-2008 2:10 PM


Re: Is it infinite?
So, are you really saying that space will bend the bar and weld it to the beginning? What if I travel a distance equivalent to 80 billion light years? Am I going to be stretched out and bent back all across the universe to where my journey started?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by cavediver, posted 06-02-2008 2:10 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by cavediver, posted 06-02-2008 4:40 PM Agobot has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 184 of 380 (468962)
06-02-2008 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Agobot
06-02-2008 3:59 PM


Re: Is it infinite?
and weld it to the beginning?
Weld? No, of coures not. Where does this come from?
What if I travel a distance equivalent to 80 billion light years? Am I going to be stretched out and bent back all across the universe to where my journey started?
Yes, in exactly the same way that if you travel 21599 miles around the Earth, you will be stretched out and bent back all across the Earth to where your journey began.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Agobot, posted 06-02-2008 3:59 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Agobot, posted 06-02-2008 5:32 PM cavediver has replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 185 of 380 (468970)
06-02-2008 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by cavediver
06-02-2008 4:40 PM


Re: Is it infinite?
quote:
and weld it to the beginning?
  —Agobot
quote:
Weld? No, of coures not. Where does this come from?
  —cavediver
You evade answering my question - how do the beginning and end of the bar meet?
quote:
What if I travel a distance equivalent to 80 billion light years? Am I going to be stretched out and bent back all across the universe to where my journey started?
  —Agobot
quote:
Yes, in exactly the same way that if you travel 21599 miles around the Earth, you will be stretched out and bent back all across the Earth to where your journey began.
  —cavediver
If i take on a random journey around the earth, the last thing that could be expected is that i'd be returning(by chance) in exactly the same spot as where my journey started. Or did you mean to say that if i travel a distance of 80 billion light years, at some point i'd be returning(in a random direction) and not moving forward in space?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by cavediver, posted 06-02-2008 4:40 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by cavediver, posted 06-02-2008 6:18 PM Agobot has replied
 Message 188 by lyx2no, posted 06-02-2008 7:00 PM Agobot has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 186 of 380 (468976)
06-02-2008 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Agobot
06-02-2008 5:32 PM


Re: Is it infinite?
If i take on a random journey around the earth, the last thing that could be expected is that i'd be returning(by chance) in exactly the same spot as where my journey started.
If you travel in a perfectly straight line in a random direction and travel 21600 miles (+/- a bit to counter the oblateness) then where do you think you'll end up???
Or did you mean to say that if i travel a distance of 80 billion light years, at some point i'd be returning(in a random direction) and not moving forward in space?
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. If the Universe were to stop expanding, and if you travelled far enough (it's a hell of a lot further than 80 billion light years - probably >> 80 trillion light years) in a straight line, you could return to your starting point. This is basic cosmology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Agobot, posted 06-02-2008 5:32 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Agobot, posted 06-02-2008 6:21 PM cavediver has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 187 of 380 (468978)
06-02-2008 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by cavediver
06-02-2008 6:18 PM


Re: Is it infinite?
Got what you mean. thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by cavediver, posted 06-02-2008 6:18 PM cavediver has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 188 of 380 (468992)
06-02-2008 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Agobot
06-02-2008 5:32 PM


All in All Its All Just Bricks in the Wall
Welding was my word. I mentioned it to be certain that “rejoin” was not being taken as a molecular reconnection of the bar at the point where it would meet its opposite end. No, the bar would meet itself as any two bar ends would be expected to meet it touched together.
Buzsaw was talking about an imaginary bar made perfectly “straight” and as long as need be to cross all the way across the Universe (not just the observable universe). His bar was not being bent or stretched by the Universe.
Let me expound upon my earlier level wall. If I use a transit (and non-differential leveling) to construct a straight and level brick wall on an imaginary smooth Earth without taking the curvature of the Earth’s surface into account (while, oddly enough, correcting for refraction) 3.5 km down the road I’ll find my meter tall wall is now two meters tall. A shallow slope, but a slope to be sure. This is because I’m erroneously using light rays as my standard of “level”. And light rays pay no heed to the curvature of the Earth. However, if I use a spirit level to establish level my one meter wall will remain one meter tall. The 40,000 km long cap stone will meet itself at one meter above the ground. This is because I’m now using gravity as my standard of level, and gravity is always perpendicular to the surface of my featureless Earth.
The Universe is a 3 dimensional surface of a 4 dimensional hyper-sphere (hyper-spherish enough). And just like the surface of the Earth it bends back upon itself. If I build my “straight” brick wall right across space it will, without ever deviating from what we measure as straight in the same way as my Earth bound wall never deviated from level, follow the curvature of the 3-D surface to eventually meet itself.
In either case, if you took a walk along the wall you’d return to your starting point in a completely nonstreched out, non-welded end-to-end fashion. It would just be another spot along the wall like any other spot along the wall. All in all, it just another brick in the wall.
If i take on a random journey around the earth .
No one has suggested a random trip around and about. That’s why we used the word straight.

Kindly
A mind changed against its will is of the same opinion still.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Agobot, posted 06-02-2008 5:32 PM Agobot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Libmr2bs, posted 06-02-2008 11:44 PM lyx2no has not replied

Libmr2bs
Member (Idle past 5726 days)
Posts: 45
Joined: 05-15-2008


Message 189 of 380 (469015)
06-02-2008 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Buzsaw
06-02-2008 8:59 AM


Re: Is it infinite?
The assumption that light or any imaginary or real "straight" object would circle back on itself completely ignores the chaos theory. I used the word "would" instead of "could" since it might be possible that an event will occur. I personally don't have the computing power or desire to invest the time to calculate the probability that such an event might happen.
One must not overlook chaos theory when investigating the probability of events happening in a non-uniform system. The distribution of galaxies should be adequate to identify space as an non-uniform system. If the array of galaxies is non-uniform then the argument for a uniform shape to the boundaries of space would seem weak and the probabilities of a non-uniform shape would seem infinite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Buzsaw, posted 06-02-2008 8:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by lyx2no, posted 06-03-2008 12:20 AM Libmr2bs has replied
 Message 196 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 2:10 PM Libmr2bs has not replied

Libmr2bs
Member (Idle past 5726 days)
Posts: 45
Joined: 05-15-2008


Message 190 of 380 (469017)
06-02-2008 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by lyx2no
06-02-2008 7:00 PM


Re: All in All Its All Just Bricks in the Wall
Your calculations need to include the fact that gravity is non-uniform at the surface of the earth. For that reason light will not follow the curvature of the earth. The use of GPS equipment has shown that there is enough difference in gravity at the earth's surface that accurate measurements have to take into consideration the gravitational gyrations.
Why this reply - see 189 for my earlier post discussing the probabilities of such an event happening along the boundaries of space.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by lyx2no, posted 06-02-2008 7:00 PM lyx2no has not replied

lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 191 of 380 (469018)
06-03-2008 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Libmr2bs
06-02-2008 11:25 PM


A Spherical Horse
Take an irregular potato and cut it in two. Stamp it with an ink pad and press it to a sheet of paper. What are the odds of the perimeter not meeting itself?
As to your post 190: And what causes the gravity on my “featureless Earth” to be nonuniform? I’d more likely have to take into account that I’m using a spirit level to level a line 40,000 km long. Or that the actual gravitational center keeps moving as the Moon moves around. Or that the Earth rotates giving a continually varying Sun angle. Or that I’m just not that good a laying brick. Hint: Spherical horse on a frictionless track.
And the reason light doesn’t follow the curvature of the Earth has nothing to do with the surface gravity being nonuniform, but with the gravity not being nearly intense enough.
AbE: As you like calculations, the Earth would have to be about 1.44 billion times more massive for light to follow its current surface curvature.
Edited by lyx2no, : To be more dick-like.
Edited by lyx2no, : Grammar.

Kindly
A mind changed against its will is of the same opinion still.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Libmr2bs, posted 06-02-2008 11:25 PM Libmr2bs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by cavediver, posted 06-03-2008 3:07 AM lyx2no has replied
 Message 194 by Libmr2bs, posted 06-03-2008 1:46 PM lyx2no has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 192 of 380 (469030)
06-03-2008 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by lyx2no
06-03-2008 12:20 AM


Re: A Spherical Horse
To be more dick-like
As you like calculations, the Earth would have to be about 1.44 billion times more massive for light to follow its current surface curvature
Hmmm... I make it 4.81 billion times more massive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by lyx2no, posted 06-03-2008 12:20 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by lyx2no, posted 06-03-2008 2:57 PM cavediver has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 193 of 380 (469056)
06-03-2008 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by IamJoseph
06-01-2008 7:24 PM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
That conclusion is wrong - logically and scientifically. If a car has a maker, than any other complex construct must be equally validated - unless anti-thetical proof is put forward.
Cars dont reproduce, this is not an arguement for your position at all. Its ridiculous to compare an automobile to a living organism.
Evolution is also not a natural [?] process - it shows a complex engineering every instant, inherent of intergration, cross-reciprocity and its conclusion being anticipatedn in its processes: there is nothing 'natural' about it, and if this term is applied, it can only be applied for an evolution designers and maker.
This is just an ID arguemnet which lacks all of the evidence that is needed for a good theory, you have a belief that guilds your understnding of nature thats all.

All great truths begin as blasphemies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by IamJoseph, posted 06-01-2008 7:24 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by IamJoseph, posted 06-03-2008 1:53 PM onifre has replied

Libmr2bs
Member (Idle past 5726 days)
Posts: 45
Joined: 05-15-2008


Message 194 of 380 (469064)
06-03-2008 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by lyx2no
06-03-2008 12:20 AM


Re: A Spherical Horse
Your example of the potato is funny and unreal. You're not taking into consideration motion. Put on a blind fold and have someone turn you around several times and try to take your potato and stamp the paper several times. Would all the ink marks match up? Will you even hit the paper each time? Give up? Simply try stamping the paper twice with your potato. Do the marks match up?
You are making so many assumptions that the solutions you arrive at are meaningless. A spirit level doesn't work in non-gravitional space or even a weak one so you have to consider gravity. The earth wobbles. A featureless earth doesn't take into consideration what's beneath the earth. What is beneath your "earth" including discontinuities determines both the magnetic and gravitional fields. Enough already?
It appears that you don't comprehend the chaos theory.
The calculations for the age of space is based on what we can see or measure. Photons generated at the big bang traveling at the speed of light away from us would be invisible and the distance traveled would not be measurable. No one has been able to tell me where the first photon went and why it would circle back to it's beginning point. Try if you wish.
Edited by Libmr2bs, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by lyx2no, posted 06-03-2008 12:20 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by lyx2no, posted 06-03-2008 3:25 PM Libmr2bs has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 195 of 380 (469065)
06-03-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by onifre
06-03-2008 11:03 AM


Re: Time's existence is immaterial
quote:
Cars dont reproduce, this is not an arguement for your position at all. Its ridiculous to compare an automobile to a living organism.
Why so? Cars do reproduce. The operative factor here is that cars don't just happen of themselves - nothing which exhibits and displays a complexity does that, or can be accepted as doing that - even where there is no proof of a complex car maker or any other complex structure: there is really no such thing as 'nature' - nor is there anything natural about complexities emerging from non- or less complex. That is the ridiculous factor here, not mine.
If you examine your premise - there is nothing which negates science and logic more than that premise. Your science stops abruptly at a certain treshold, and becomes less than sci-fi, witchraft and socery.
The correct conclusion is yes, but we cannot prove it. One step further than that says, if we could prove it, that proof would be less transcendent the the universe. Here, the lack of proof and the enigma of not knowing is the only proof which is credible.
We have to acknowledge, we are trust in a diobolical situation, on many levels. We don't know what we are, where we came from, why, how, or where we're going - or if there is a place to go - or to not go. That the primary 'A' factor is so fastidiously barred, to all, including theologists and scientists, does not infer or suggest there is nothing - just the reverse.
We know nothing of the most basic factor of all: our origins. Its un-natural. And this means, designed that way - intentional and purposeful, blatantly obvious. Try to hide some fact from everyone, who are desperate to find out: its imposiible, and far more demanding a feat that not hiding it. Imagine telling a cop you don't know where your from - will he think you a brilliant scientist!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by onifre, posted 06-03-2008 11:03 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
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