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Author Topic:   Absence of Evidence..............
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 113 of 138 (468823)
06-01-2008 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Straggler
06-01-2008 6:28 PM


Re: big problem
Personal and empirical don't belong in the same sentence together. There is no such thing as personal empirical evidence. If it is not reproduceable, it is not empirical regardless of whether it is true or not.
Where an eye witness claims to have seen something take place, for example, that is a personal empirical experience.
No, it's not, but if that's the case then we'd have to say the resurrection of Jesus Christ is empirical evidence. Are you prepared to admit that?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 114 of 138 (468824)
06-01-2008 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Straggler
06-01-2008 6:22 PM


Re: big problem
Studies into personal auras do not make personal auras empirical.
Empirical means observable. Directly or indirectly observable but objectively verifiable either way.
If the study is repeatable, the data derived from it is empirical whether the data is true or not.
If you are going to simply define empirical as what people experience as an objective reality, then I think we'd have to say Jesus' resurrection is an empirical fact.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 115 of 138 (468826)
06-01-2008 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Straggler
06-01-2008 6:40 PM


Re: Evidence
http://zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf
The Lancet: Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest
some discussion of the idea.....
Also Greyson2 writes in his discussion: “No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain.” And Parnia and Fenwick3 write in their discussion: “The data suggest that the NDE arises during unconsciousness. This is a surprising conclusion, because when the brain is so dysfunctional that the patient is deeply comatose, the cerebral structures, which underpin subjective experience and memory, must be severely impaired. Complex experiences such as are reported in the NDE should not arise or be retained in memory. Such patients would be expected to have no subjective experience [as was the case in the vast majority of patients who survive cardiac arrest in the three published prospective studies1-3] or at best a confusional state if some brain function is retained. Even if the unconscious brain is flooded by neurotransmitters this should not produce clear, lucid remembered experiences, as those cerebral modules, which generate conscious experience, are impaired by cerebral anoxia. The fact that in a cardiac arrest loss of cortical function precedes the rapid loss of brainstem activity lends further support to this view. An alternative explanation would be that the observed experiences arise during the loss of, or on regaining consciousness. The transition from consciousness to unconsciousness is rapid, with the EEG showing changes within a few seconds, and appearing immediate to the subject. Experiences which occur during the recovery of consciousness are confusional, which these were not”. In fact, memory is a very sensitive indicator of brain injury and the length of amnesia before and after unconsciousness is an indicator of the severity of the injury. Therefore, events that occur just prior to or just after loss of consciousness would not be expected to be recalled. And as stated before, in our study1 patients with loss of memory induced by lengthy CPR reported significantly fewer NDE. Good short-term memory seems to be essential for remembering NDE.
Page not found - Metanexus
Page not found – Toward The Light…leading back to the Source
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 118 of 138 (468918)
06-02-2008 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by bluegenes
06-02-2008 6:38 AM


Re: Evidence of the Supernatural needed.
Yawn.......as usual, you make the same boring error so many other materialists have. Think of it this way. God, angels, or any spiritual or supernatural thing is by definition, from a science perspective, a natural or material thing.
You cannot define everything within the universe as automatically material or natural and then exclude spiritual things based on definitions. By definition then, spiritual things are "natural" relevant to the universe, but by your tone, it's obvious it may be best to conclude any discussions with you.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 121 of 138 (468925)
06-02-2008 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Straggler
06-02-2008 12:48 PM


Re: Evidence
However in the complete absence of any empirical evidence to even suggest that something might be possible and is worth investigating further the only rational and practical conclusion is that it does not exist.
The lack of evidence for the soul, or for God or for angels has got nothing to do with technology.
Actually, it has everything to do with technology. Billions of people have stated they have experience with such things. It is you that is denying the evidence. Furthermore, the NED study is indeed empirical evidence for the soul.
Can you empirically verify the right person to marry? Even if theoritically possible, does anyone really do that?
Can you answer the question please. Insults are not an answer. According to you, absent empirical evidence we should not rely as people on something, and yet it is quite clear most of life's decisions do not involve reliance on empirical evidence but rather a combination of subjective and objective experience.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 123 of 138 (468940)
06-02-2008 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by bluegenes
06-02-2008 2:07 PM


Re: Then show us the evidence
ID threads should be on another thread, I suspect, and I don't want to get banned. If you want to discuss this further, I'd suggest a different thread. The point on "material" is that you cannot define "material" as everything in the universe (i.e. everything in existence) and exclude the concept of God from it.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 126 of 138 (468981)
06-02-2008 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Straggler
06-02-2008 6:20 PM


Re: Misapprehensions of Evidence
However with the above in mind I see empirical evidence, in the broadest sense, as that which exists in an objective reality and which can therefore be experienced and independently corroborated by individual conscious beings existing in that same objective reality. Observable evidence in the widest sense of the word is that which can be independently verified because it is external to the ”experiencer’.
Ok, then the resurrection of Jesus Christ is empirical, right? Many witnessed the risen Christ, and so that's empirical evidence Jesus rose from the dead.
Right?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 129 of 138 (468988)
06-02-2008 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Straggler
06-02-2008 6:40 PM


Re: Misapprehensions of Evidence
I just think you are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to include any objective experience as "empirical data" but then really are trying to qualify that with whether experimental verification can be done.
In reality, your claims about "personal empirical evidence" are really just saying whatever someone thinks they experienced that is objective. Regardless, people don't run peer-reviewed studies to verify those things. It's not really empirical data. It could be sometimes and sometimes not.
heck, the whole idea of witness testimony of past events as empirical data is far-fetched since most of the time there isn't enough other data to corroborate the testimony, which is one reason so many innocent people were convicted until DNA analysis came along to set them free.
The reality is the vast majority of life's decisions are not based on empirical data and research. They are based on a combination of objective and subjective experience, sure, but to call that "empirical" is just silly. The so-called personal empirical experience you claim is, in fact, mostly anecdotal.
Yet you claim I am the one trying to say anecdotal evidence is empirical! I am not the one doing that. You are. You are the one saying people's life experiences are empirical if they are objective. In reality, they are by definition anecdotal.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 130 of 138 (468990)
06-02-2008 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by PaulK
06-02-2008 6:49 PM


Re: Misapprehensions of Evidence
For purposes of this discussion, I was just making a point that so-called "personal empirical evidence" is really not empirical but anecdotal. In fact, it's pretty much the definition of anecdotal, and most of life's decisions are based on non-empirical data. It's just the way it is.
Now, the claim of the resurrection to some extent could be considered empirical since there were so many that claimed it, but trying to label eyewitness accounts of something in the past as empirical is sort of misleading. It's not repeatable. The best one can do is apply logic and other data when considering something that happened in the past. However, in the case of Jesus, there is something more that can be done to verify it but it's a personal journey.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 134 of 138 (469019)
06-03-2008 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Straggler
06-02-2008 7:10 PM


Re: Misapprehensions of Evidence
The fact that every person I have ever empirically experienced
You know, I don't have time to entertain your insults and delusions, but in the hopes of perhaps leaving you with something learned, please consider that your personal experiences of objective reality are anecdotal, not the empirical data you seem to imagine.
You may think you empirically experience something but when you relate that experience as an individual as some sort of indication of a truth or fact, that is an anecdotal story. It's not the sort of empirical data you think it is.
Perhaps providing a definition of anecdotal would be helpful to you?
Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis:
Anecdotal - definition of anecdotal by The Free Dictionary
When you are speaking of your life's experiences, you are not speaking from rigirous scientific analysis. That doesn't make your deductions any less true, but it's anecdotal. What you have seen and experience may or may be true over a wider statistical sample, and in fact, may not be true at all. Your perception, for example, could be wrong.
At the same time, deductions from such anecdotal evidence can well be true and more accurate than current scientific opinion because reaching scientific consensus requires time, money, etc,....and it may well be that the issue has not been properly regarded and scientists hold a dogmatic view based on limited evidence.

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