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Author Topic:   Einstein's Religious Beliefs
Percy
Member
Posts: 18313
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 31 of 42 (468840)
06-01-2008 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by randman
06-01-2008 8:20 PM


Re: nope
randman writes:

Maybe so, maybe not....but one thing is clear, despite rejecting a traditional view of God, he was not atheist and did believe in God.

But that last part is the whole problem with your argument. You just asserted the one thing Einstein never said: "I believe in God." He knew how misleading it would be to express his views in those terms.

In a very technical sense after a lot of qualifying of the definitions of terms I suppose you could claim that Einstein believed in God, but if you went around saying, "Einstein believed in God," Einstein would definitely respond, "Young man, you are giving people a very wrong impression of my views."

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by randman, posted 06-01-2008 8:20 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2980 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 32 of 42 (468843)
06-01-2008 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
06-01-2008 8:42 PM


Re: nope
Problem is I have carefully showed that the "God" he believed in was not the traditional idea of God, but at the same time, Einstein stated he was religious and believed in God. So I am just retelling what he stated without adding anything more at all to it.

In fact, the biggest error here is to assert he was an atheist and just mentioned "God" as a metaphor for natural laws. It was more than that. He saw those laws as evidence for this "superior intelligence."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 06-01-2008 8:42 PM Percy has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 42 (468845)
06-01-2008 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Percy
06-01-2008 8:18 PM


Re: nope
Percy writes:

If you could say to Einstein, "After reading many of your quotes, my understanding is that you believe in a Creator God," I think he would reply, "Young man, when you put my views in your own words it opens them up to interpretations I never intended."

By the same token, if you would say to him "you don't believe in God at all" he likely would respond, "when you put my views in your own words it opens them up to interpretations I never intended."

He seems to be like some agnostics who apply the concept of a god when it fits the ticket for whatever reason that the mood or occasion calls for, taking care not to allow the concept of god to render him subject to the responsibilities a god might impose on one's lifestyle.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Percy, posted 06-01-2008 8:18 PM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 06-01-2008 9:42 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 35 by Iblis, posted 06-01-2008 9:48 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 34 of 42 (468847)
06-01-2008 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
06-01-2008 9:20 PM


Re: nope
taking care not to allow the concept of god to render him subject to the responsibilities a god might impose on one's lifestyle

We all know Dr E. was such a party hound....:rolleyes:

Buz, I see that line of bullshit so often from you fundiforms that I want to barf. I'll bet the rent that I'm just a freakin' "moral" as you are, and I've got Benny Hinn beat all to hell and gone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2008 9:20 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2008 10:05 PM Coragyps has not yet responded
 Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2008 10:12 PM Coragyps has responded
 Message 40 by randman, posted 06-01-2008 10:42 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
Iblis
Member (Idle past 1977 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 35 of 42 (468848)
06-01-2008 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
06-01-2008 9:20 PM


Re: nope
Buzsaw writes:

He seems to be like some agnostics who apply the concept of a god when it fits the ticket for whatever reason that the mood or occasion calls for, taking care not to allow the concept of god to render him subject to the responsibilities a god might impose on one's lifestyle.

I really like this formulation. I've been reading along in a lazy fashion sort of groping for ways to say that he appears to use the concept idiomatically, as a verbal placeholder, without using it religiously as an object of worship.

But it's easier to read in plain english :) Thanks Buz


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2008 9:20 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2008 10:26 PM Iblis has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 42 (468850)
06-01-2008 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
06-01-2008 9:42 PM


Re: nope
Coragypts writes:

I've got Benny Hinn beat all to hell and gone.

Imo, that's not saying much for either you or Hinn. ;)


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 06-01-2008 9:42 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 42 (468851)
06-01-2008 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
06-01-2008 9:42 PM


Re: nope
Coragyps writes:

We all know Dr E. was such a party hound.

I'm sure you are aware that partying is not all there is to the word/term lifestyle.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 06-01-2008 9:42 PM Coragyps has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Coragyps, posted 06-01-2008 10:22 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 38 of 42 (468852)
06-01-2008 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Buzsaw
06-01-2008 10:12 PM


Re: nope
I'm sure you are aware that partying is not all there is to the word/term lifestyle.

Yeah, there's barbequeing kittens and babies, too.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2008 10:12 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 42 (468853)
06-01-2008 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Iblis
06-01-2008 9:48 PM


Thanks for saying so, Iblis. There comes these rare occasions when I say something tolerable to someone here at EvC. ;)


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Iblis, posted 06-01-2008 9:48 PM Iblis has not yet responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2980 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 40 of 42 (468854)
06-01-2008 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
06-01-2008 9:42 PM


Re: nope
Wasn't Einstein somewhat of a philanderer, btw?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 06-01-2008 9:42 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Deftil
Member (Idle past 2536 days)
Posts: 128
From: Virginia, USA
Joined: 04-19-2008


Message 41 of 42 (469048)
06-03-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by randman
06-01-2008 1:04 PM


Re: nope
Or conversely you have poor reading skills and shouldn't accuse those with better knowledge of being intellectually dishonest?

Oh don't worry, I don't accuse those with better knowledge of being intellectually dishonest! Anyway, back to arguing with you....

Fact is he never says he is a pantheist.

As I said, in the quote he BASICALLY says he is a pantheist:

Einstein writes:

In common terms, one can describe it as 'pantheistic'."

If you don't think he is BASICALLY saying that he is a pantheist, I can only conclude that English isn't your first language and you still aren't very fluent in it.

He says quite plainly he is not an atheist, that he is not a pantheist either.

In the quote in question, he is saying his beliefs are BASICALLY pantheistic. Make sure you are looking at the correct quote now. I don't see how you could be making the argument you are making if we are looking at the same quote, and you are familiar with the English language unless you are being intellectually dishonest.
We agree that in the other quote he says he doesn't feel he is a pantheist, hence the contradiction.

He quite plainly states over and over again, he believes in a Creator God, but doesn't think God answers prayer. God is not a personal God as most religions advocates. He sets up immutable laws, which He Himself is subject to.

He does?! Well for crying out loud, why have you been holding out on us? Just go ahead and post the quotes where he says he believes in a "Creator God".
The fact is, he never states his belief in a "Creator God". That's only your interpretation. It seems a consistent intepretation in regards to some of his quotes, but in others, not so much. That's why threads on many message boards about Einstein's religious beliefs go on for pages and pages with no consensus ever being reached.
That's why there are many long web pages on Einstein's religious beliefs. But if oversimplyfying the issue while putting words in his mouth and thoughts in his mind is what makes you feel good, then go ahead I guess. Just realize that people are going to point out the contradictions from time to time.

How you can read what he says and not see this is astonishing to me!

I get the impression a lot of things astonish you. If it makes you feel any less astonished, a very large number of people don't see this issue the way you do.

Maybe if you approach this not trying to fit Eistein into some specific camp and just reread his words, you can see it.

My personal opinion is that Einstein was more or less agnostic. Remember that you're the one insisting you know that he believed in a Creator God. Maybe if you set that notion aside, you can see the contradiction. In all the messageboard discussions of this topic I've ever read, you're the only person I've ever seen actually deny that some of his quotes seem quite contradictory. Even those that think, as you do, that Einstein believed in a god, acknowledge the clear contradictory nature of some of his quotes.

Edited by Deftil, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by randman, posted 06-01-2008 1:04 PM randman has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12580
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 42 of 42 (469049)
06-03-2008 9:00 AM


Moderator Comment
I'd just like to suggest that those with the most to lose might want to more scrupulously follow the Forum Guidelines by avoiding certain lines of digression.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
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