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Author | Topic: God.....again. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Hi Scraff,
You know I have, in the past, called you "scraffy"; but considering how efficiently and venemously you take on characters like buzzsaw (as in your recent post on my thread) I should really call you "scrappy"! But this is an aside. The word "atheism" comes to us from the Greek atheos - "denying the gods," by way of the French - atheisme. Atheos appears to be a combination of theos - "god," plus the negative particle - a, "no" or "not." To me, a-theism means two things. 1. - That I don't believe in the concept of an invisible, immortal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Guy in the Sky. And,2. - That I am opposed to Theism, a philosophy which embraces the above mentioned Guy and seeks to bring me under His dominion. Theism is the power behind the throne where monarchy is practiced (that was a problem for Henry the Eighth). Theism is sometimes expressed through a form of government called Theocracy, wherein "God Rules" (through his priests, or ministers, or mullahs) I'm sure you've seen this arrangement. Most recently it has been called The Taliban. So "atheism" in my book, also means anti-theism; for theism leads to theocracy; and theocracy is hell on wheels. db ------------------Are you a Sunday School graduate?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Awww, I always liked that you called me "schraffy". I'll accept "scrappy", though. I can't deny that it's accurate.
quote: Hmm, interesting. Isn't "theism" different from "religion", though? Isn't the problem with governments and theocracy more about the adherence to a religion rather than belief in God/gods? Is it your position that Theism inevitably leads to religion/Theocracy?
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Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
Miguel,
You said"I don't understand why atheists deny the existence of a creator." What would you say if I told you I believed in three gods? There's Numbah Wan, who creates things, Numbah Tu, who destroys things, and Numbah Friii, who generally just sits around and has a speech impediment. There's a lot more I could tell you about this awesome trio, but first I would like to get it off my chest that I don't understand that people deny their existence. Why do you think this is, Miguel? No, really Miquel, I'm serious. If someone made this claim, what would you say to them? {Edited to correct typo and because I had the names wrong. Numbah Wan came to me in a dream last night and told me to correct it.} [This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 07-23-2003]
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
doctrbill writes:
quote: Not quite. The word comes to us from the Greek "a" and the Greek "theos" - "without god." The best way to find out what atheism is is to ask atheists. I am unsure why you seem to think you can tell somebody else what they really believe...and think that you can do so through a semantic argument. Most atheists do not deny god. Rather, they have no belief in god. Yes, there is a difference. Atheists don't go around actively thinking about how there is no god all the time. They simply behave as if there is no god. Thus, your first definition of "atheism" as:
quote: isn't actually followed by most atheists. It isn't that they don't believe. It is that they have no belief. That is, atheists don't "believe there is no god." Instead, they "have no belief in god." Do you have any beliefs about the Invisible Pink Unicorn (May Her Horn Be Blessed)? Does the fact that I just mentioned it to you really change anything about what you believed? So now you understand how most atheists feel: They just don't think about it unless somebody engages them in the topic. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Scrappy
quote:My Thorndike Barnhart defines theism as: 1 belief in one God, the creator and ruler of the universe. 2 belief in a deity or deities; religious faith or conviction. {< Greek theosgod} I would say that any theistic religion is a manifestation of theism. The simplest way to define the word religion is to look at its etymology < Latin re + ligion = tie again, or tie back; which suggests preservation, or conservation. That in itself does not require a theistic philosophy. Theism assumes an Overlord, usually invisible, all powerful, and all wise. Almost invariably (I can't think of a single instance to the contrary), it leads to the appearance of His envoy, prophet, vicar, ambassador, angel, avatar etc. whatever; His representative "on earth." The man in shining armor who stands before you with drawn sword is his judge. Will you serve the God of heaven and his appointed Lord, annointed king, duly elected representative, tax collector, ... Huh? Will ya? This is a time honored and highly, if temporarily, successful means of establishing the kingdom of whichever god seeks to rule the world of the moment. On a personal level, in a face to face encounter with his avatar, you're damned right I believe in him! Whatever you say Sir. This is worship of the True God. Everything else is just farting around.
quote: If it is profitable, or imagined to be in the interest of national security, ... Absolutely! Christians pray for the return of their King, whom they expect to govern this planet with a Rod of Iron. That prayer is not metaphorical. History teaches us to fear the king who knows God. You wicked (secular materialists) will be "worse off than Sodom and Gomorrah." {to quote Jesus} Does this answer your question? db ------------------Are you a Sunday School graduate?
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
quote:I don't know where you get your definition but the one you point up here is that of Thorndike Barnhart in their advanced dictionary. If you don't like it, take the matter up with them. quote:Advice which you seem to ignore in reference to yourself at the moment. quote:I believe I made it very clear that I am speaking for myself. quote:Thanks for noting that I am unique, or at least unusual. quote:And this hair splitting is not a semantic argument? quote:No. Now I understand how you feel. db ------------------Are you a Sunday School graduate?
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5872 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Actually Rrhain, I think the distinction you're making pertains more to the difference between so-called "strong atheist" (active denial and/or active anti-theism) and "weak atheist" (manifesting a lack of belief as you mention). Most of the people I know who self-identify as atheists fall somewhere on a spectrum between those two distinctions - and may even elide into agnosticism or fall on multiple places on the "scale" depending on which particular deity or aspect of theism is in question (positive an anthropomorphic entity doesn't exist, less positive or even agnostic about a more deist interpretation). Since we're discussing personal philosophy and self-identification, it isn't surprising that easily delimited categories don't exist.
I personally probably fall close to DrBill's atheism/anti-theism stance. Whether that refutes your statement that this brand of atheism
...isn't actually followed by most atheists. It isn't that they don't believe. It is that they have no belief. That is, atheists don't "believe there is no god." Instead, they "have no belief in god." or not I have no way of judging. I neither know "most atheists" well enough to make the call nor do I believe that there is some over-arching atheist philosophy that could be considered definitive and hence provide a standard by which all atheists can be classified.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
doctrbill responds to me:
quote:quote:quote: Merriam Webster: Main Entry: atheismPronunciation: 'A-thE-"i-z&m Function: noun Etymology: Middle French athisme, from athe atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god Date: 1546 The word "atheism" means, literally, "without god." The point is that you are trying to make a semantic argument and then claim that atheists are actually like your semantics. Reality doesn't work that way. If you want to know what "atheism" means, then you should start by looking at atheists and see how they define themselves. They don't mean what you claim is meant.
quote:quote: (*chuckle*) Yeah, right. And your proof of this is what, precisely? Question: Am I an atheist? Question: What is my background with regard to studying comparative religion with respect to atheism? Here...Michael Martin in his book, Atheism: A Philosophical Justification wrote the following:
In Greek a' means without' or not' and theos' means god.' From this standpoint an atheist would simply be someone without a belief in God, not necessarily someone who believes that God does not exist. According to its Greek roots, then, atheism is a negative view, characterized by the absence of belief in God. Let's look at the Atheism Web's An Introduction to Atheism:
What is atheism? Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings. And later on:
"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?" Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. So it seems that many atheists seem to be of the opinion that atheism as defined by others doesn't seem to be the same thing as atheism as defined by atheists. Now, which definition do you think gets to be the one that really counts?
quote:quote: Do you mean you are defining your atheism? Well, that's one thing. It seemed, however, that you were trying to define atheism on a larger scale than just yourself.
quote:quote: No. Please follow the link regarding disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true.
quote:quote: We're back to my second question: What is my background with regard to studying comparative religion with respect to atheism? You seem to be so sure about my personal history, why don't relate it for us? How long have I been researching atheism? Have I written anything about it? If so, where? Indeed, there are people out there who take what is commonly called the "strong" atheistic position where they make an active claim that there is no god and cannot be anything like god, but most atheists do not take that position. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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compmage Member (Idle past 5153 days) Posts: 601 From: South Africa Joined: |
Miguel writes: But why are so many properties of the universe fine-tuned for life? Besides the various arguments already raised by others to this form of reasoning I would find it far more convincing if life existed despite evidence that it is impossible for it to exist. The fact that life exists in a universe that seems to be suited to life is not all that impressive. ------------------He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
And this hair splitting is not a semantic argument? Uh, we seem to be discussing the meaning of a word here so, of course, it is a semantic argument. I see in Rrhain's "hairsplitting" distinction a real point. For some atheists (but of course some are more militant) it is a huge non-issue. It is a matter of "no belief" rather than a belief of any sort.
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Parasomnium Member Posts: 2224 Joined: |
Miguel,
You said:"But why are so many properties of the universe fine-tuned for life?" They are not! They are indeed very badly tuned. At least for the kind of life I have in mind. You see, this universe is particularly ill-suited for life based on neutrobisonic spheroids. Huh? Neutrobisonic spheroids, you ask? What are they? Well, how the hell should I know? They don't frickin' exist, do they? Because of this stupid universe and it's stupid properties. Seriously now, what I'm saying is that each property of the universe has to have some value. Then, given the particular values of all the properties of the universe, whatever happens isn't a miracle, it simply follows. In this universe, life as we know it happens to be one of the consequences. Why moan about it? Enjoy it! You could think of it this way. Imagine you're a pond. Don't worry, you're an intelligent pond. You can, shall we say, 'ponder'. The question is: are you intelligent enough not to waste time pondering why the hole you sit in is exactly the right shape for you? Take your time chewing on it. {edited to include "as we know it"} [This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 07-24-2003]
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Rrhain:
quote:You have apparently evolved beyond that stage of development. quote:I don’t know and I don’t care. quote:Mine. Or is there going to be a test? quote:Pretty sharp, aren’t you? quote:Don’t know. Don’t care. quote:Don’t know. Don’t care. quote:Indeed. quote:I do not pretend to speak for most atheists. db ------------------Are you a Sunday School graduate?
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
NosyNed
quote:Thanks Ned. I see that you, for one, know how to use a dictionary. quote:I believe that is called "weak atheism," and depending on the philosophical development of the individual, might become either agnosticism or "strong atheism." You apparently understood the intent of my post. db ------------------Are you a Sunday School graduate?
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2764 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Quetzal:
quote:Thanks Quetzal. Seems to me that Rrhain would like to be the god of atheists, judge of the nonfaith, (or lack of faith). db ------------------Are you a Sunday School graduate?
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zephyr Member (Idle past 4550 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
quote:So who's going to write the atheist bible? I can just imagine the arguments... it'd never work. Rather antithetical anyway, wouldn't you agree?
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