Why did God forgive our sins?

Yes, I just love the way Christians present God as if he's some kind of middle-man, a mafia-type 'Mr Fix-it' who takes care of pesky little problems like sin and such if only you would give your allegiance in return...and I love that God 'can't tolerate sin' but he's willing to 'take possession' of it in order to 'cleanse' us.It's as if sin is an irresistible force of the universe that God can't do anything about but ,hey, if you believe in his son then he'll turn a blind eye to your indiscretions.Truly pathetic.

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

there you go again, talking of sin as some external force that god has to tolerate for a while. Is this the same god we're talking about here, the creator of everything? the being that defines sin?You seem to be talking about a godlet who's incapable of accepting the foregone conclusion of his own actions and ideas, despite his alleged love for the bearers of such iniquity (which he himself created ofcourse) and here's a sentence that captures nicely the asburdity of Christian doctrine in all its madcap, scizophrenic glory.Where shall I begin? That god must punish himself in order to satisfy himself that justice has been done?!
That god's justice involves punishing a proxy and not the perpetrator?!
That god has to punish someone for what they did while he created them in the full knowledge of what they were going to do?!
That god even feels the need to punish something, like a tin-pot dictator?! He can't just forgive, like you and I can, he has to see some blood on the floor.I could go on and on but I hope you get the gist of it. I spent 20-odd years of my life trying to ignore the absurdity of Christian doctrine. Speaking of atonement, I would strongly suggest reading your Leviticus to see what atonement is all about. it's giving something up (usually a goat) in oder to atone for already committed sins. Now can you tell me , in the twisted version of atonement doctrine you subscribe to, who gives what up? and what for ?

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

Freewill has nothing to do with it. You're talking about boundaries set by god for mankind, not for himself. Sin is just a concept in God's mind, not something he has no control over. God chooses to be offended by sin, he doesn't have to. It's like me giving my young daughter a painting set and saying "right, you can draw whatever you like but if you use yellow I'm going to disown you!". In reality, her choice of colors doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever. It's only if I try to be a bullying, controlling father that I'll impose such meaningless restrictions.Enforcing proxy punishments on top of this -in case she forgets and does use yellow ("oops you used yellow so now I have to cut off your finger, but because I love you so much I'll cut off my own finger instead!"- simply verges into psychopathic behaviour. Freewill has nothing to do with it. If you already know what's going to happen, then when it does happen it's a foregone conclusion. An inevitable result. err..no...that's just another twisted definition you're using.

quote:

---

Main Entry:
for·give Listen to the pronunciation of forgive
Pronunciation:
\fr-giv, for-\
Function:
verb

​

transitive verb1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b: to grant relief from payment of 2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon intransitive verb

---

See, your god does none of the above. On the contrary, he insists that payment is made and he offers to make the payment himself (to himself!) if only you'd sign an IOU (that you accept his son as your saviour).Not only doesn't he grant relief from debt, he burdens you with even more debt instead! He behaves more like a mafia loan-shark rather than a benevolent, loving god who cares for our welfare. First off, God isn't the transgressor, he is the offended party so he doesn't have to give up anything! Mankind, is the transgressor of sin, so what does mankind give up in order to cover their commited sins?Second, how the hell can God the father and the Son give up a perfect, harmonious relationship when they're allegedly sitting side-by-side in heaven as we speak. Does that mean that their relationship is no longer perfect and harmonious ?!Third, even if forgiveness meant that the offended pay for the offence themselves (which it doesn't), then why does the transgressors are made to put their souls up as collateral ? If you come into my shop and break my precious china then all I have to do to forgive you is say "don't worry about it mate" and send you on your merry way. I can settle the cost incurred between my supplier and myself. I don't have to make you leave me your credit card and PIN behind 'just in case'! Your god can't do this simple act, he wants to see some blood on the floor even if it's his own! How fucked up is that ?!In conclusion, the Christian concept of the atonement doctrine is but a clumsy effort to shoehorn the original Jewish concept into Pauline theology and mythicised view of Jesus. You can continue with your mental acrobatics trying to make sense of it or you can be honest and admit that OT's Yahwh isn't the god described in the NT, for starters.

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

I had a barbecue only last weekend. God loves the smell of burning meat! (Lev 1:9) Nope, the original Jewish concept offered atonement for sins already committed, not upcoming (Lev 6:1-7). Also, atonement was offered mainly for unintentional sinning, not intentional one (with a few exceptions). really? Name one! so? The author of 2 Peter believed Paul. What is your point? so ? what does this show other than Paul's students believed what Paul taught?! LOL! Let's assume that's true, for discussion's sake. Jesus then contradicts the OT :

quote:

---

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matt 5:17

---

So which one do you believe, Jesus or the OT ?

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

The issue is not whether he needs permission or not, the issue is that he is the one with absolute authority and power over when and where to set the boundaries and who to let in. His reluctance to let people in without them paying some kind of price (to him) is in stark contrast with his alleged love and care for mankind.Simply put, if you really love and care for someone you forgive them without terms & conditions. Your god is unable/unwilling to do that. I'm saying that sin is just what god says it is. Like me saying that I don't like yellow. However I'm not going to disown my daughter if she draws a yellow painting. See, I can do that and I'm not even all-powerful and all-loving! Unless you've created paedophiles and know exactly what they're going to do and when they're going to do it. In which case saying that you love kids and hate paedophiles is grossly hypocritical. You know when in an earlier post I said: "You can continue with your mental acrobatics..". That's exactly why I said it! Yes, but that's the forgiver's problem, not the forgiven's. As far as the forgiven party is concerned he has been forgiven. End of. Yes, but that's the forgiver's problem, not the forgiven's. As far as the forgiven party is concerned he has been forgiven. End of. Yes, but that's the forgiver's problem, not the forgiven's. As far as the forgiven party is concerned he has been forgiven. End of. Could you point out, in the definition of forgiveness I quoted in the previous post, where are the terms 'retention of debt', 'payment', 'price' being mentioned?Let me quote again:

quote:

---

Forgive - 1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b: to grant relief from payment of 2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :

---

Note the terms 'give up claim', 'grant relief from payment', 'cease resentment'. You see, forgiveness is the exact opposite of what your god is doing. Nice preaching. Love the veiled threats. Now back to the point: will you finally admit that (a) your god doesn't forgive, he just tolerates if you pay the right price and (b) the whole atonement doctrine is just an ill-thought concoction of Christianity in order to claim its Jewish roots.

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

No it wasn't a similar choice at all. Unlike Adam & Eve your two boys know the distinction between good and evil. Unlike God, you don't know what your boys are going to choose. Unlike God, you have no power to protect your kids from all the bad things they can do to themselves. Unlike God, you didn't effectively set a trap for your kids so that you could kick them out of the house. Man, at that stage, didn't know that what he was doing was bad. Even worse, God knew that man would disobey. The legal term for this would be something along the lines of "entrapment perpetrated on a toddler". What kind of god do you worship ?! So God set a trap so that he could kick A&E from heavne and he also forbids all their descendants from entering until they pay the right price!
Seriously, have you really thought about the kind of god you worship ?!

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

oh, I see! we're now moving the goalposts are we?! The 'God who forgives' has now become 'God who forgives only those who don't oppose him'. Nice one! His reasoning and consequences are irrelevant to me and to this discussion. I'm pointing out the contradiction in his alleged words and actions. Simply put, if you really love and care for someone you forgive them without terms & conditions. Your god is unable/unwilling to do that. And you still haven't shown otherwise. yes, sinful me! I suppose I'm lucky your god's the forgiving kind......oh hold on...that's right....he ISN'T!! Other than perhaps needing a shave, I'd say what a jolly nice package!Hey, you know what else? I can do something your god can't: I can forgive and forget! LOL! that's like saying "our armed forces didn't kill civilans, they just created the potential for civilians to be killed by dropping large amounts of bombs on their houses". Priceless. oh sorry, I thought you would infer the implied part.
Here, let me make it clearer:

quote:

---

If you know beforehand and you're the all-powerful creator of the universe who's never wrong then it's a foregone conclusion

---

There, happier now? the only issue that we're differing on is that I'm stating the bleedin' obvious and you're making up stories about a rebellion-crushing, time-travelling, neurotic godlet with a chip on his shoulder, in order to justify your dogma.At least be honest to yourself, if not the rest of us.

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

ah yes, the old cop-out of "when good things happen it's because of God but when bad things happen it's because of the devil/man/etc."If God is all-powerful and and he does interfere in our lives then he is responsible for bad things happening as well as good ones.Of course you could claim that God doesn't interfere, in which case nothing, good or bad, is due to him.Or you could claim that God isn't all-powerful so he can't stop bad things from happening.Or you could claim that God just doesn't care about mankind, so he allows bad things to happen.which one will it be ?

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

err...was the first one a trick question ??! ah yes, the good ol' Christian protection racket. God loves you so much that he's going to break your legs if you don't join his mob.what a despicable, petty and evil godlet you worship!

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

how lovely, your god doesn't just 'forgive', he breaks you down first and then 'forgives' you. Like many torturers, he has to break his victims' will before he can extract a confession.well, I suppose you've now admitted it and given up all this nonsense about god's being 'forgiving'.what a nice god you believe in! given that you describe your god as a petty, self-centred sadist, an eternal existence without him is by far the best option! Listen, for the last time: Forgiveness is given freely and without terms & conditions. That's pretty much the definition of forgiveness. That's what forgiveness IS! Your god is unable/unwilling to do that.What you're describing is not forgiveness, just tolerance of sin (provided the right price is paid). That's what your god does: he turns a blind eye to sin if only you believe that his son died for you. (although he didn't quite really die, did he?)

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

Tell me, if you see your neighbour leading his children towards a cliff, intending to push them off, wouldn't you try to stop him? or at least notify the authorities? Or would you just say that 'I have no right to interfere in the lives of the children of my neighbour'?Taking this a step further, if you're the almighty creator of everything and you see one of your creations attempting to destroy some other creations of yours (who you supposedly love very much) what would you do ?
well, you're telling us that your God just doesn't want to interfere!So either he's not as powerful as the devil so he can't stop him, or he just doesn't care about mankind that much.What you're preaching here presents your god as incompetent or uncaring, or both. What?! so you're effectively saying that you wouldn't try to stop children jumping off a cliff because that would do away with their freewill ?!You sound almost as callous as your god!

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

so you would interfere to save someone from danger even you might not know them or have any responsibility towards them.but your god will not interfere to save his own creation who he supposedly loves! what a father he is! so the almighty, all-powerful creator of everything has delegated the job of saving his own children to the weak and faltering humankind, even when he knows that the 'eternal destiny' of some of his creation will be lost as a result ?!wow, your god then can't really care about his children that much. I mean, he assigned an incompetent subordinate to this task, he can't be really bothered then, maybe he has more important things to attend or something.what a lazy, uncaring god you worship! so your answer is then B) : god just doesn't care about mankind that much. At least you're honest about it. but isn't that god's job? Oh, that's right, I forget: god couldn't be bothered and has delegated this task to his underlings.how can you seriously expect people to start worshiping such a callous, indifferent god ?!

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

Hold on, im Message 130 you said that God has delegated this job to his church! Are you changing your mind now?!Also if his children are born saved there's no need to accept Jesus, as they're already saved.so, just for the record, which doctrine are you subscribing to? are we born saved or not? does Jesus or God do the saving? Is God doing it himself or has he delegated to his church?It seems to me you're very confused about what you believe in! No, god is lazy because he can't be bothered to do anything to save his creation from the mess he condemned them in. Your last few posts clearly imply that. Previously, I've asked:

quote:

---

So either he's not as powerful as the devil so he can't stop him, or he just doesn't care about mankind that much.

---

You replied:

quote:

---

God will take the devil and cast him into the lake of fire one day and he will never be able to leave his final abode. Neither will any that choose to go with him.

---

So you're saying that God is more powerful than the devil. Then, the answer to "why is God watching his creation being led to destruction and does nothing about it" can only be that he doesn't care about them that much. You can't have it both ways. Either God wants to help but he can't, or he can but he won't.I won't even go into the absurdity of God paying himself (what did he pay?) to forgive us (for something that we didn't do) and stop himself from having us sent to hell (which he created). See my previous posts to iano for more details on how messed up this is. errr........NO HE DIDN'T! When Jesus was asked what is the one thing that man needs to do in order to be saved he replied that all you need is to love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself (Luke 10:25-37). These are the two great commandments.Don't you read your bible?! Jesus never said "believe in me and you will be saved".And I thought you were a Christian! Or is it you just don't believe what Jesus said?

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

In Message 87 I asked:

quote:

---

will you finally admit that (a) your god doesn't forgive, he just tolerates if you pay the right price and (b) the whole atonement doctrine is just an ill-thought concoction of Christianity in order to claim its Jewish roots.

---

to which you replied with a tirade about rebellion-crushing and god existing outside time and how god's forgiveness bears no relation to what we define as forgiveness.so, shall I take this as an impled acceptance of the above or is a more formal admission forthcoming?

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

.
So, if I can follow your mental gordian knot (and I admit I'm struggling), you're suggesting that god waits until after the alleged rebellion in order to forgive?! is this correct? err...no.. you are the one who brought up this rebellion business, not me. I'm simply asking 'if God is really forgiving/loving then why can't he just forgive Adam's transgression and let mankind back in?'It's a simple question. Predictably, once more you're unable to give a simple answer. But that's not the issue here. Whether or not the forgiver has to pay something or not is beside the point. The point is :

quote:

---

Forgiveness means that the forgiver gives up resentment of or claim to requital for the offence the forgiven has commited.

---

In plain English that means that the forgiver doesn't make the forgiven sign IOUs and put up collateral for the cost the forgiver incurred. The forgiven just gets on with his life, he doesn't have to pay any price, he is forgiven. End of.So, if you break my window by playing football on the street and I forgive you, you can just walk away. You don't need to know how much it's going to cost me to replace my window. That's my business not yours. I'm not going to ask you for your credit card or any other payment. You are forgiven.Do you admit that your god is unable/unwilling to do that?

---

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"