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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 479 (469763)
06-07-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Wumpini
06-07-2008 10:38 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
God desires that all of the people in the world spend eternity in heaven with Him.
So, this monster that you worship has created some people knowing, even before He has created them, that they will burn in Hell for all eternity.
How can you worship such a disgusting, evil entity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Wumpini, posted 06-07-2008 10:38 AM Wumpini has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by iano, posted 06-07-2008 12:26 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 11 of 479 (469796)
06-07-2008 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iano
06-07-2008 12:26 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
it's a persons own will that insists upon that destination.
A person's own will is immaterial to the argument.
I'll break it down.
God knows everything.
God knows who will and who won't fulfill the criteria for salvation even before the beginning of creation.
Thus, God is creating people in the knowledge that countless millions of them will not be saved. This is pure unadulterated evil.
The free will defence is not an issue because God knows what each and every person's choices will be, otherwise He would not be God.
no ones will is anymore disposed towards their destination than anyone elses will
Exactly.
But God already knows what everyone's destination is, thus He is an utterly evil entity.
Take myself as an example. I am never going to accept Christianity as having anything to do with reality, thus I am doomed. Now, God already knew this about me billions of years before I was born, yet He does nothing to 'save' me.
How can any sane person worship this cruel and disgusting entity?
then I cannot see why you would have a problem.
It's not that you cannot see, you do not want to see, and you will even mould God into what you want Him to be rather than what He is.
Why not just admit that the God of the Bible is a bloodthirsty, jealous, arrogant, manipulative pathological murderer (just like the Bible says), rather than this fluffy, cuddly, 'I love all my children and want them in heaven with me but they are so bad', that is just a figment of your imagination?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by iano, posted 06-07-2008 12:26 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 15 by iano, posted 06-07-2008 7:37 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 19 of 479 (469863)
06-08-2008 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by iano
06-07-2008 7:37 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
True. And we can see that a persons will enters the fray immediately. God knows who wills and who wills not..even before the beginning of creation.
Yet this does not stop Him creating mankind.
We might agree that one way for God to know who will fulfill the salvation criterion (from 'before' the beginning) is to be simultaneously present 'after' the end of time to observe all who fulfilled it.
We don't need to dress it up at all, it is simple logic.
We have an entity who knows everything, He knows who will satisfy the salvic criteria, and who won't. He knows before he even creates mankind that most of His creation will burn in Hell for ever. What a monster.
God creates people in the knowledge that all will end up at an eternal destination dictated by their own hearts desire.
Yes, we agree on this.
Whilst not of the opinion that we are born with free will, the free will defence works so long as Gods knowing is non-determining (as exampled above)
This still doesn't work Ian.
All we need to know is that we all have an eternal destination. In some branches of Christianity the destination is either eternal paradise or eternal damnation. God already knows who is going where even before the first human was created, so simple logic tells us that God creates people knowing that they are destined for Hell. Your choices in life make no difference at all to this, He already knows what your choices will be.
To make matters worse, who was it that set everything up like this? Who was it that decided that most of humanity would be tortured for all eternity?
Yes, it was Yahweh.
Yahweh set this all up in the first place. It was Yahweh who already knew the outcome of the Adam and Eve 'test'. Can you imagine a God wondering if His creation would disobey Him or not? How ludicrous is this? "I'll set up a wee test for my new creations, just to see if they will obey me or not, oh wait a minute, I already know that they will disobey me, ach I'll do it anyway, maybe I will be wrong!"
Then what is the punishment that He will dish out to this test that he already knows the outcome of? A little 'slap' on the wrist, ground them for a week, go off in a huff and don't speak to them again, or torture them and their descendants until the end of time?
Yeah, torture them and their descendants for ever, that sounds a fair punishment for refusing to obey me. It doesn't even matter that they do not know what right and wrong is, I'll test them for that anyway. Then all their descendants, that I already know won't accept that it makes sense for me to sacrifice myself to myself a couple of thousand years down the line, I'll torture them forever in Hell.
And who created Hell?
Yes, the lovable God that you worship.
Why not just admit that you worship a monster, are you ashamed to admit that?
What kind of monstrous entity would set up something like this?
Oh yeah, Yahweh the bloodthirsty child murderer of the Old Testament. I wonder why I don't worship the God of the Bible?
Edited by Brian, : added A + E text

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 Message 15 by iano, posted 06-07-2008 7:37 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 25 of 479 (469924)
06-08-2008 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dave101
06-08-2008 4:09 PM


Not another one
So what's your story Dave?
A) Ex Alcoholic
B) Ex Drug Addict
C) Bullied
D) Head Trauma
E) Ex Con
F) All of the above
You aren't doing Iano any favours by feeding his delusion you know.

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 Message 24 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 4:09 PM Dave101 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 28 of 479 (469930)
06-08-2008 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by iano
06-08-2008 9:38 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
If God knows the 'before' by virtue of being present 'after'
But why would He have to be present ”after’ to know the ”before’?
A supreme being has supreme knowledge, God knows the past present and future, there is nothing that God does not know, otherwise He is not God.
Isaiah 46:10 spells it out:
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ”My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
God declares the future from the beginning; He declares things that haven’t happened yet. Your God knows who He will be chuckling at as he watches them being tossed into eternal suffering.
then not creating those who would perish would mean there is no 'after' to know the 'before' about. And no reason not to create them.
I actually cannot think of a good reason why God even had to create anything.
But as the Bible declares in many places, God already knows what is happening at the end.
Granted, the problem with your objection arises because you try to apply time-based moral concepts to eternity. It doesn't alter the fact of your objection going into a downwardly spiraling tailspin.
The problem with your answer is that it does not resemble the god of the Bible. But you don’t really care about that do you?
Whatever excuse you can dream up for the immediate future that will protect this false image you have of Yahweh the murderer will do for you.
You worship a horrendous, evil, disgusting entity, why you wish to do that is up to you. But don’t expect the rest of us to take your ad hoc ”apologetics’ seriously. You seem to know God better then He knows Himself.
Do you have a problem with worshipping a cruel monster and this is why you dress Him up as something else?
Again you have ignored my suggestion as to how God knows 'the future'.
God knows the future because He is God?
How could God pass on prophecies if He didn’t know the future?
People would only be destined to Hell by a determining God. One who sets our programme in motion - knowing what would transpire - due to him having programmed it to occur.
It doesn’t matter if God is a determining God or not, the point is we have a God who knows everything, He knows every single choice that every single person will ever make, but it didn’t stop Him creating them. God even knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and set all this sin garbage in motion, how can He be anything other than evil?
This is not the scenario as I suggest, one in which God knows 'the future' by virtue of his simultaneous presence in the future - now. His knowing what my choices 'will' be arises out of the fact that I have already made those choices.
And thus you limit God, and ignore the Bible, to keep your God in the image that you want to have of Him, which is the complete opposite of the image portrayed in the Bible.
You do not have to have already made the choice in order for God to know what you will choose.
Q: How God could unrighteously kill anyone?
Read your Bible sometime, it is full of God’s unrighteous killing. What you seem blissfully unaware of is that God is not righteous, your God is a barbaric psychopath.
Here’s one to get you started.
An Egyptian man and woman live on a farm in the eastern delta c. 3500 years ago and scratch a living from the land.
A few hundred miles away a pharaoh is desperate to let a bunch of slaves leave Egypt because their God is going to kill all the first born children of each Egyptian family. However, try as he might, the pharaoh cannot let the slaves go because the slaves’ God has made it impossible for him to do so. So, the time limit passes, the Egyptian farmer and wife waken up to find their child dead, and have no idea why. The slaves’ God has murdered the child.
I am sure you will come up with some fantasy Ian to justify this slaughter of the innocents by Yahweh (ooh there’s an interesting new take for an article).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 9:38 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 44 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 6:11 PM Brian has replied
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 4:40 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 31 of 479 (469933)
06-08-2008 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dave101
06-08-2008 5:00 PM


Re: Not another one
My answer Brian is ... Yes except bullied, that was always my enjoyment. :-)
My theory never fails to amaze me. I must have some built in detector or something.
Funny thing is Brian, People have been trying to debunk Christ for 2000 years... Just never happens.
It has been debunked mate, you just won't accept it.
He is here to stay.
The thing is He is not here to saty and hasn't been for 2000 years. What is here to stay are sad individuals who keep the fantasy alive. He is dead, he was ne messiah, deal with it and move on.
You should do some research into the resurrection.... It is one of the most documented events in the history of the world.
There isn't a single shred of evidence for the resurrection.
Even Harvard Law who tried to debunk it ended up admitting that after all the hype, all the misinformation out there, If taken to court today there would be ample evidence to prove that Christ was risen from the dead :-)
You don't really believe that fairy tale propaganda do you?
I don't expect you to believe Brian.
I used to, but once you grow up you are supposed to stop beleiving in fairytales.
I just state what I see as an event in the history of man that can not be refuted....
It has been refuted countless times.
Jesus did not rise from the dead, He was no messiah. there you go, refuted again.
What are you going to do on the day you face Him Brian?
Never going to happen
The cool thing about truth friend is that it is truth even if you don't want it to be.
Good advice mate, hope you realise it is a two way street!
By the way, I am not uneducated, I have degrees in both science and in surgical technology as well as certification in computers in the line of p.c. support specialist and help desk analysis.
Kent Hovind has a Phd and he is one of the thickest people on the planet.
Perhaps the real problem is just as God says and that man wants to worship the creature and not the Creator? What do you think?
Perhaps ancient myths belong in the past with the superstitious cultures they were invented in.
Insults will get you nowhere Brian... Be nice.
I am being nice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 5:00 PM Dave101 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 33 of 479 (469937)
06-08-2008 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dave101
06-08-2008 5:20 PM


Re: A Light at the End Of The Tunnel :-)
Dave, when I speak about God, I do not acknowledge His existence, I refer to a fictional literary character that people such as Ian and yourself are deluded into thinking is real.
if we evolved from monkeys.... why are there still monkeys?
You aren't really a science graduate at all are you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 5:20 PM Dave101 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 5:47 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 40 of 479 (469948)
06-08-2008 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dave101
06-08-2008 5:47 PM


Re: A Light at the End Of The Tunnel :-)
So tell me friend... why are there still monkeys if they evolved into humans?
Who claims that monkeys evolved into humans?
I am in Scotland, a town called Falkirk, which isn't too far from Holy Loch.

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 Message 37 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 5:47 PM Dave101 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 6:14 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 42 of 479 (469950)
06-08-2008 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dave101
06-08-2008 5:59 PM


Re: Another boy with imaginary friends.
There are over 5500 documented pieces of evidence on the resurrection outside the bible.
Name one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 5:59 PM Dave101 has replied

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 49 of 479 (469957)
06-08-2008 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dave101
06-08-2008 6:14 PM


Re: A Light at the End Of The Tunnel :-)
is (or was) a very popular teaching that man evolved from apes. (or monkeys).
Evolution doesn't claim this though, that's why I was asking.
A very famous evolutionist in Europe was asked why he holds onto this theory and his answer was "because if evolution is wrong then that means we are designed creatures by God and this would mean that we are morally responsible to that creator... and this to me is unthinkable".
Sounds a bit fictional this 'story', since any one clever enough to believe in evolution would be clever enough to know that these are not the only two options.
really did ask the monkey question simply because a guy at work, when I told him of this site asked me to ask that question because his wife wants to know...
Well, with you being a science graduate why didn't you tell them that no one claims humans evolved from monkeys.
Regarding the 5500 docs, I think that's lifted from a fundy website because it is a lie.
Re my theory, I'll explain later as it is nearly bedtime here, but it's along the lines of swapping one addiction for another, fueled by guilt.
Edited by Brian, : spelling

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


(1)
Message 50 of 479 (469958)
06-08-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by bluegenes
06-08-2008 6:18 PM


Re: Another boy with imaginary friends.
Dave101 writes:
I am not a Christian because I am stupid.
You mean it's coincidence?
Think I just peed myself

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 54 of 479 (469962)
06-08-2008 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by iano
06-08-2008 6:11 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Before moving on to the rest of your post, perhaps you could share the "method by which God knows all" you're basing your condemnation on.
God knows all because He is God.
How on earth am I supposed to know how He does it.
Knowing how and why God does anything is your job.
If this is the model you're working off then I can't see cause for complaint.
Whose complaining?
I am just pointing out how monstrous your God is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 6:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 59 of 479 (469969)
06-08-2008 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by iano
06-08-2008 6:40 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
The one I offered might not be to your liking. But it does get God off your hook.
Off what hook?
How or why God knows the future is irrelevant to His barbarianism.
I don't make excuses for God, I just accept what the Bible tells us about Yahweh, He's a monstrous, jealous, bloodthirsty, evil tyrant. No big deal to me, but it isn't me who is worshipping this creature is it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 6:40 PM iano has replied

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 Message 60 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 7:00 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 72 of 479 (470058)
06-09-2008 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
06-08-2008 7:00 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Are you deliberately acting stupid?

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 Message 60 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 7:00 PM iano has replied

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 73 of 479 (470059)
06-09-2008 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:40 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
And, according to Iano, you can even worship false gods if you like, despite yahweh being a jealous God.
Got to love these fundies, any excuse will do at anytime as long as it makes their God look 'good'.
Edited by Brian, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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