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Author Topic:   The infinite space of the Universe
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 286 of 380 (469819)
06-07-2008 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by cavediver
06-07-2008 7:57 PM


Re: Down the rabbit hole
quote:
Furthermore, it gives the horrific impression that space stops at the boundary of your matter blob, and then starts again on the other side.
Consider how a war ship transfers its heavy tanks across the water onto the shore. The ship lays down solid physical plaforms [transit flooring], which enables the tanks to drive on the water. So space, as per ToE and all developments in nature, can lay down more space to house heavier matter, when needed, in an anticipatory mode. Interestingly, this marks a treshold between newly created space - and what was there before that space was created.
This enigma of what was there before the space, applies equally to what was there before the BB, or before any mass existed. This answer has to be that whatever existed before the space, cannot be anything which is universe contained - otherwise we violate the finite factor of the universe. This means, where space does not yet exist, there is no matter, energy, forces or any other uni-contained elements. By the process of elimination, we must conclude there is an external, triggering factor here, and one which is not subject to the universe factors - because this scenario applies pre-BB, thus pre-universe. The external trigger factor applies even when one includes parallel and other universes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by cavediver, posted 06-07-2008 7:57 PM cavediver has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 287 of 380 (469824)
06-07-2008 9:13 PM


The Infinite Space Of The Universe
Having read the three conflicting opinions about what matter is and what space is in the last messages, I've become even more convinced that my (being similar to other advocates of static boundless space) POV on space is the only correct and sensible one.
Space is area in which matter, forces and energy etc exist. The reason we don't observe nothingness space is that all space in our area of the universe has matter and forces etc occupying it.
Were there no matter, etc existing, the universe would consist of only endless boundless infinite space/area in which nothing exists since this boundless area is inclusive in the term/word universe.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by DrJones*, posted 06-07-2008 10:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 289 by IamJoseph, posted 06-07-2008 11:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 290 by Libmr2bs, posted 06-08-2008 12:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 294 by cavediver, posted 06-08-2008 5:32 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 308 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2008 7:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 288 of 380 (469831)
06-07-2008 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Buzsaw
06-07-2008 9:13 PM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
POV on space is the only correct and sensible one.
How can it be correct or sensible when it is contradicted by evidence?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 289 of 380 (469838)
06-07-2008 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Buzsaw
06-07-2008 9:13 PM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
quote:
Were there no matter, etc existing, the universe would consist of only endless boundless infinite space/area in which nothing exists since this boundless area is inclusive in the term/word universe.
How can 'space/area' exist w/o matter, and how would you determine and identify such? - what instrumentation would you use, which is not itself matter? What is water without water; - or what is a hole without the hole? It becomes semantical, as opposed science.
Thus, if we can see or percieve space, even if we can imagine it - it is not nothing but something. I see space as the final frontier between the corporeal and non-corporeal, the space bed being made of the rarest, smallest, oldest, deepest forms of matter; it's particles probably have only has one side - its other side being non-corporeal, and representing only that which is not uni contained.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Buzsaw, posted 06-07-2008 9:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Libmr2bs
Member (Idle past 5726 days)
Posts: 45
Joined: 05-15-2008


Message 290 of 380 (469844)
06-08-2008 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Buzsaw
06-07-2008 9:13 PM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
I agree that space is unbounded but not necessary static. If it is expanding, it can't be bound.
I'll repost the problems that appear to have no answer. When the big bang occurred there would have been a first photon released. Where is that photon today? Its had at least 14 billion years to travel.
Or try to explain where photons go when they are emitted by objects at the "boundary"? Are they emitted in one direction as if the boundary was a curved mirror?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Buzsaw, posted 06-07-2008 9:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by IamJoseph, posted 06-08-2008 1:34 AM Libmr2bs has replied
 Message 295 by cavediver, posted 06-08-2008 6:04 AM Libmr2bs has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 291 of 380 (469851)
06-08-2008 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Libmr2bs
06-08-2008 12:33 AM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
Light essence, namely a pre-star light, predated photons. Photons are a later occurence, and is the factor which produced luminosity, which is varied from light per se. Light is massless, and ageless - the latter factor disqualifies photons, which are not ageless but has a very limited lifespan.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Libmr2bs, posted 06-08-2008 12:33 AM Libmr2bs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Libmr2bs, posted 06-08-2008 10:56 PM IamJoseph has replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 292 of 380 (469861)
06-08-2008 3:19 AM


quote:
Not to take anything away from our dear departed Douglas, but space - even if infinite - is really, really small
  —cavediver
How can something infinite be small at the same time?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by cavediver, posted 06-08-2008 5:30 AM Agobot has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 293 of 380 (469869)
06-08-2008 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 292 by Agobot
06-08-2008 3:19 AM


How can something infinite be small at the same time?
Easy - how many rational numbers (fractions) are there between the integers 1 and 2?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Agobot, posted 06-08-2008 3:19 AM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Agobot, posted 06-08-2008 7:45 AM cavediver has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 294 of 380 (469871)
06-08-2008 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Buzsaw
06-07-2008 9:13 PM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
I've become even more convinced that my POV on space is the only correct and sensible one.
Yep, Buz has finally raised himself above Einstein, Feynman, Hawking... what it must be to have a mind of Buz' calibre.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Buzsaw, posted 06-07-2008 9:13 PM Buzsaw has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 295 of 380 (469872)
06-08-2008 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Libmr2bs
06-08-2008 12:33 AM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
When the big bang occurred there would have been a first photon released. Where is that photon today?
The first photons emitted were immediately re-absorbed. The early Universe was extremely dense and there was no free path through space for photons to travel. Even thousand of years after the Big Bang, temperatures were suffciently high that eletrons and hydrogen/helium nuclei were not combined into neutral atoms, but existed as a plasma of charged particles. This plasma was opaque to photons. About 400,000 years after the Big Bang, temperatures cooled sufficiently that the electrons and nuclei boudn together to form neutral atoms of hydrogen and helium. This period is known as recombination. For the first time in the Universe's history, it was transparent to photons. The photons from that period formed the all important cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR) Those photons are still travelling through the Universe.
Or try to explain where photons go when they are emitted by objects at the "boundary"?
Space has no boundary - it is either infinite, compactified back onto itself, or possibly smoothly bleeds at the edges into the higher dimensional 'bulk' space.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Libmr2bs, posted 06-08-2008 12:33 AM Libmr2bs has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by ICANT, posted 06-08-2008 9:29 AM cavediver has replied
 Message 314 by Libmr2bs, posted 06-08-2008 11:36 PM cavediver has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5529 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 296 of 380 (469876)
06-08-2008 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by cavediver
06-08-2008 5:30 AM


quote:
How can something infinite be small at the same time?
  —Agobot
quote:
Easy - how many rational numbers (fractions) are there between the integers 1 and 2?
  —cavediver
Infinite. So what does it prove? If 1 and 2 denote distance, then the distance between 1 light year away and 2 light years is greater than between 1 nanometre and 2 nanometres. When we communicate we always use consciousness and our scale of things would say that a distance of 1 light year is big and 1 nanometre is small.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by cavediver, posted 06-08-2008 5:30 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by cavediver, posted 06-08-2008 9:19 AM Agobot has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 297 of 380 (469880)
06-08-2008 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Agobot
06-08-2008 7:45 AM


Don't worry about it - it was an oblique comment from one cosmologist to another concerning the possibly ephemeral nature of distance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Agobot, posted 06-08-2008 7:45 AM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 298 of 380 (469882)
06-08-2008 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by cavediver
06-08-2008 6:04 AM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
cavediver writes:
The early Universe was extremely dense and there was no free path through space for photons to travel.
I thought there was no space for it to take off into.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by cavediver, posted 06-08-2008 6:04 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by cavediver, posted 06-08-2008 9:34 AM ICANT has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 299 of 380 (469884)
06-08-2008 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by ICANT
06-08-2008 9:29 AM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
I thought there was no space for it to take off into.
Huh? What was there if there wasn't space?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by ICANT, posted 06-08-2008 9:29 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by ICANT, posted 06-08-2008 1:28 PM cavediver has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 300 of 380 (469906)
06-08-2008 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by cavediver
06-08-2008 9:34 AM


Re: The Infinite Space Of The Universe
cavediver writes:
Huh? What was there if there wasn't space?
Well either space is expanding or space exists for things like the universe to expand into.
I thought you had explained to me that the smaller than pea sized universe that existed in time past with nothing outside of it only what was inside. Space, time and everything we see and do not see was inside of it. The space inside of this universe began to expand very rapidly then slowed down, and is now speeding up again.
So if space was expanding between every particle (for use of a better word) there was no space for the photon to take off into.
That would mean the first photon is right where it has always been.
Unless of course things move in space. If that is the case then is space not expanding?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by cavediver, posted 06-08-2008 9:34 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
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