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Author Topic:   God.....again.
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 11 of 50 (46605)
07-20-2003 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Miguel
07-20-2003 2:53 PM


quote:
If atheists say thay God doesn't exist, why are they always talking about him?
As NosyNed has pointed out, atheists are not all that way.
I am that way, however, and I believe it is because of my past life as a "man of God." God has become a haunting part of my past, and interaction in this forum, on these topics, helps me to deal with it.
A Bible College course titled: Philosophy of Biology convinced me that they had no evidence for creationism. That was in the old days when "scientific creationism" was an new and exciting buzz. I was very turned on about it at first but I was turned off soon enough.
It was "Christian Experience," familiarity with the Bible, love of Nature and knowledge of biology which led me to call myself atheist. Sounds pretty strange huh?
db
------------------
"If God created Nature, then the Law of Nature is the Law of God."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Miguel, posted 07-20-2003 2:53 PM Miguel has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 31 of 50 (46898)
07-22-2003 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by nator
07-21-2003 4:18 PM


Hi Scraff,
You know I have, in the past, called you "scraffy"; but considering how efficiently and venemously you take on characters like buzzsaw (as in your recent post on my thread) I should really call you "scrappy"! But this is an aside.
The word "atheism" comes to us from the Greek atheos - "denying the gods," by way of the French - atheisme. Atheos appears to be a combination of theos - "god," plus the negative particle - a, "no" or "not."
To me, a-theism means two things.
1. - That I don't believe in the concept of an invisible, immortal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent Guy in the Sky. And,
2. - That I am opposed to Theism, a philosophy which embraces the above mentioned Guy and seeks to bring me under His dominion.
Theism is the power behind the throne where monarchy is practiced (that was a problem for Henry the Eighth). Theism is sometimes expressed through a form of government called Theocracy, wherein "God Rules" (through his priests, or ministers, or mullahs) I'm sure you've seen this arrangement. Most recently it has been called The Taliban.
So "atheism" in my book, also means anti-theism; for theism leads to theocracy; and theocracy is hell on wheels.
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by nator, posted 07-21-2003 4:18 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by nator, posted 07-22-2003 4:27 PM doctrbill has replied
 Message 34 by Rrhain, posted 07-22-2003 11:00 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 35 of 50 (46988)
07-23-2003 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by nator
07-22-2003 4:27 PM


Scrappy
quote:
Isn't "theism" different from "religion", though? Isn't the problem with governments and theocracy more about the adherence to a religion rather than belief in God/gods?
My Thorndike Barnhart defines theism as:
1 belief in one God, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2 belief in a deity or deities; religious faith or conviction. {< Greek theosgod}
I would say that any theistic religion is a manifestation of theism. The simplest way to define the word religion is to look at its etymology < Latin re + ligion = tie again, or tie back; which suggests preservation, or conservation. That in itself does not require a theistic philosophy. Theism assumes an Overlord, usually invisible, all powerful, and all wise. Almost invariably (I can't think of a single instance to the contrary), it leads to the appearance of His envoy, prophet, vicar, ambassador, angel, avatar etc. whatever; His representative "on earth."
The man in shining armor who stands before you with drawn sword is his judge. Will you serve the God of heaven and his appointed Lord, annointed king, duly elected representative, tax collector, ... Huh? Will ya?
This is a time honored and highly, if temporarily, successful means of establishing the kingdom of whichever god seeks to rule the world of the moment. On a personal level, in a face to face encounter with his avatar, you're damned right I believe in him! Whatever you say Sir. This is worship of the True God. Everything else is just farting around.
quote:
Is it your position that Theism inevitably leads to religion/Theocracy?
If it is profitable, or imagined to be in the interest of national security, ... Absolutely! Christians pray for the return of their King, whom they expect to govern this planet with a Rod of Iron. That prayer is not metaphorical. History teaches us to fear the king who knows God. You wicked (secular materialists) will be "worse off than Sodom and Gomorrah." {to quote Jesus}
Does this answer your question?
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by nator, posted 07-22-2003 4:27 PM nator has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 36 of 50 (46989)
07-23-2003 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Rrhain
07-22-2003 11:00 PM


quote:
doctrbill writes: "The word 'atheism' comes to us from the Greek atheos - 'denying the gods,'"
Rrhain writes: Not quite. The word comes to us from the Greek "a" and the Greek "theos" - "without god."
I don't know where you get your definition but the one you point up here is that of Thorndike Barnhart in their advanced dictionary. If you don't like it, take the matter up with them.
quote:
The best way to find out what atheism is is to ask atheists.
Advice which you seem to ignore in reference to yourself at the moment.
quote:
I am unsure why you seem to think you can tell somebody else what they really believe...and think that you can do so through a semantic argument.
I believe I made it very clear that I am speaking for myself.
quote:
your first definition of "atheism" ... isn't actually followed by most atheists.
Thanks for noting that I am unique, or at least unusual.
quote:
It isn't that they don't believe. It is that they have no belief. That is, atheists don't "believe there is no god." Instead, they "have no belief in god."
And this hair splitting is not a semantic argument?
quote:
So now you understand how most atheists feel:
No. Now I understand how you feel.
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Rrhain, posted 07-22-2003 11:00 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Rrhain, posted 07-23-2003 6:40 AM doctrbill has replied
 Message 40 by NosyNed, posted 07-23-2003 9:24 AM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 42 of 50 (47039)
07-23-2003 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Rrhain
07-23-2003 6:40 AM


Rrhain:
quote:
If you want to know what "atheism" means, then you should start by looking at atheists and see how they define themselves.
You have apparently evolved beyond that stage of development.
quote:
What is my background with regard to studying comparative religion with respect to atheism?
I don’t know and I don’t care.
quote:
Which definition do you think gets to be the one that really counts?
Mine. Or is there going to be a test?
quote:
Do you mean you are defining your atheism?
Pretty sharp, aren’t you?
quote:
You seem to be so sure about my personal history,
Don’t know. Don’t care.
quote:
What is my background with regard to studying comparative religion with respect to atheism?
Don’t know. Don’t care.
quote:
Indeed, there are people out there who take what is commonly called the "strong" atheistic position where they make an active claim that there is no god and cannot be anything like god, ...
Indeed.
quote:
but most atheists do not take that position.
I do not pretend to speak for most atheists.
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Rrhain, posted 07-23-2003 6:40 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Rrhain, posted 07-24-2003 3:27 AM doctrbill has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 43 of 50 (47043)
07-23-2003 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by NosyNed
07-23-2003 9:24 AM


NosyNed
quote:
Uh, we seem to be discussing the meaning of a word here so, of course, it is a semantic argument.
Thanks Ned. I see that you, for one, know how to use a dictionary.
quote:
I see in Rrhain's "hairsplitting" distinction a real point. For some atheists (but of course some are more militant) it is a huge non-issue. It is a matter of "no belief" rather than a belief of any sort.
I believe that is called "weak atheism," and depending on the philosophical development of the individual, might become either agnosticism or "strong atheism."
You apparently understood the intent of my post.
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by NosyNed, posted 07-23-2003 9:24 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 44 of 50 (47046)
07-23-2003 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Quetzal
07-23-2003 6:34 AM


Quetzal:
quote:
I personally probably fall close to DrBill's atheism/anti-theism stance. Whether that refutes your statement that this brand of atheism
quote:
...isn't actually followed by most atheists. It isn't that they don't believe. It is that they have no belief.
That is, atheists don't "believe there is no god." Instead, they "have no belief in god."
or not I have no way of judging. I neither know "most atheists" well enough to make the call nor do I believe that there is some over-arching atheist philosophy that could be considered definitive and hence provide a standard by which all atheists can be classified.
Thanks Quetzal. Seems to me that Rrhain would like to be the god of atheists, judge of the nonfaith, (or lack of faith).
db
------------------
Are you a Sunday School graduate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Quetzal, posted 07-23-2003 6:34 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
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