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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 61 of 479 (469974)
06-08-2008 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Dave101
06-08-2008 5:20 PM


Re: A Light at the End Of The Tunnel :-)
Someone wants me to ask this next question, his wife wants to know, ... if we evolved from monkeys.... why are there still monkeys? Just wondering...
If white Americans are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans?
If you really want to discuss this, there is a thread open for that very purpose, Human Evolution (re: If evolved from apes, why still apes?). It digresses a bit on the last couple of pages, but that is the proper place to take your question.
Meanwhile, I look forward to your 5500 proofs of the resurrection.

Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 5:20 PM Dave101 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 62 of 479 (469977)
06-08-2008 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by iano
06-08-2008 10:08 AM


atonement, what atonement?
God, in creating beings with own freewill created the potential for beings to operate outside the boundaries he set for them..........
Sin, for the purposes of discussion can be defined as actions/thoughts which occur outside the boundaries set by God.
Freewill has nothing to do with it. You're talking about boundaries set by god for mankind, not for himself. Sin is just a concept in God's mind, not something he has no control over. God chooses to be offended by sin, he doesn't have to. It's like me giving my young daughter a painting set and saying "right, you can draw whatever you like but if you use yellow I'm going to disown you!". In reality, her choice of colors doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever. It's only if I try to be a bullying, controlling father that I'll impose such meaningless restrictions.
Enforcing proxy punishments on top of this -in case she forgets and does use yellow ("oops you used yellow so now I have to cut off your finger, but because I love you so much I'll cut off my own finger instead!"- simply verges into psychopathic behaviour.
I don't see how giving people (Adam and Eve) freewill means there was a foregone conclusion. The two terms are contradictory. Freewill can go either way
Freewill has nothing to do with it. If you already know what's going to happen, then when it does happen it's a foregone conclusion. An inevitable result.
Forgiveness means that the offended pays the price on behalf of the offender. God is the offended party, to forgive he must pay the price on behalf of the offender.
err..no...that's just another twisted definition you're using.
quote:
Main Entry:
for·give Listen to the pronunciation of forgive
Pronunciation:
\fr-giv, for-\
Function:
verb
transitive verb1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b: to grant relief from payment of 2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon intransitive verb
See, your god does none of the above. On the contrary, he insists that payment is made and he offers to make the payment himself (to himself!) if only you'd sign an IOU (that you accept his son as your saviour).
Not only doesn't he grant relief from debt, he burdens you with even more debt instead! He behaves more like a mafia loan-shark rather than a benevolent, loving god who cares for our welfare.
As to what given up and why? God the father and God the son give up perfect, harmonious relationship as the price to be paid for our sin. Forgiveness, like I say, involves the offended paying for the offence themselves.
First off, God isn't the transgressor, he is the offended party so he doesn't have to give up anything! Mankind, is the transgressor of sin, so what does mankind give up in order to cover their commited sins?
Second, how the hell can God the father and the Son give up a perfect, harmonious relationship when they're allegedly sitting side-by-side in heaven as we speak. Does that mean that their relationship is no longer perfect and harmonious ?!
Third, even if forgiveness meant that the offended pay for the offence themselves (which it doesn't), then why does the transgressors are made to put their souls up as collateral ? If you come into my shop and break my precious china then all I have to do to forgive you is say "don't worry about it mate" and send you on your merry way. I can settle the cost incurred between my supplier and myself. I don't have to make you leave me your credit card and PIN behind 'just in case'! Your god can't do this simple act, he wants to see some blood on the floor even if it's his own! How fucked up is that ?!
In conclusion, the Christian concept of the atonement doctrine is but a clumsy effort to shoehorn the original Jewish concept into Pauline theology and mythicised view of Jesus. You can continue with your mental acrobatics trying to make sense of it or you can be honest and admit that OT's Yahwh isn't the god described in the NT, for starters.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 10:08 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Dave101, posted 06-08-2008 8:37 PM Legend has replied
 Message 74 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 8:06 AM Legend has replied
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 5:21 PM Legend has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 63 of 479 (469978)
06-08-2008 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
06-08-2008 7:00 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Er..if God knows who will end up in Hell by virtue of observing their choosing to go there - then I can't see how his creating them so that they can choose either way can be seen as barbaric.
Who exactly will go to hell in your opinion? All non-believers? All those who believe in "false gods"? Or just those who are "bad" regardless of belief?
Do all realistically have the choice that you claim? Do those raised in India of the Hindu faith have equal access to your form of retribution as you (or, I suppose, I)?
IF that's how he creates them - effectively able to choose either way - AND his knowing by observation doesn't alter their destination being their own (effective) free choice THEN I can't for the life of me see your gripe.
The choice is indisputably easier for some than for others. No?
Those who are raised to believe are far more likely to do so. In fact personal choice seems relatively low down the list in determining which faith or indeed any faith, one subscribes to. How does that work with regard to your free choice theory?
Why do those raised from birth to believe deserve recognition when all they have done is (in many cases) unquestioningly accept what they have been taught?
Why do those who disbelieve deserve less recognition if their whole upbringing, method of thinking, professional training and inherent nature is to question the workings of reality with skepticism and demand for evidence?
Is the "choice" as simple as you make it sound or are the odds stacked in favour of some and desperately against others on an arbitary basis?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 7:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 64 of 479 (469979)
06-08-2008 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Granny Magda
06-08-2008 7:10 PM


Re: A Light at the End Of The Tunnel :-)
If white Americans are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans?
To point out the errors and curb the excesses of our often brash and excessive distant cousins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Granny Magda, posted 06-08-2008 7:10 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Dave101
Junior Member (Idle past 5771 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 65 of 479 (469982)
06-08-2008 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Granny Magda
06-08-2008 7:10 PM


Re: A Light at the End Of The Tunnel :-)
You know Granny.. The administrator is right... I have forgotten the reason for this particular thread. When I get the list of 5500 together I will mail them to you. I will also mail to anyone who asks, you just need to let me know by email and I will attach to you. In the meantime... to answer in the simplest terms the thread question here... Why did God Forgive our Sins...
1.Because He is God and He said so
2. Because if you read the first section of John Chapter 1 say verses 1-18 and also Colossians chapter 1 say verses 12 through 22 you will know that the Creator of heaven and earth and all things is the part of God that expresses Himself as the Son. It was His pleasure to do so. Why? Because we are His creation and He has the right to do this. In fact if you would read the O.T. Book of Ruth you would learn about kinsman redeemer types and figure out the how and whys of the thing.
There were three requirements God had to meet in order to provide for our Salvation form ourselves.
1. He had to be related by blood... hence Jesus the Christ. God had to become a blood relative of ours in order to redeem us.
2. He had to legally be able to do so. IE: In doing the redemption he could not jeopardize his inheritance (see Boaz and the closer kinsman for Ruth ((Ruth chapter 4 verses 1-12)).
3. He had to want to. Having met the first two conditions was not enough. He had to WANT to.... Can you imagine friends... God so loved the world that He gave His only son to it so that all who simply believe in Him will have everlasting life in God's house. No strings attached.
This gift of the father is not one that can be reversed. Romans 11:29 says that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance meaning that He cannot take back what is offered by Him for any reason. All you have to do Brian is reach for Him... He is not the monster that you say that He is. If you were saved once then you still are.... So you fit inside that theory you have of me :-)
Does this make sense to me... NO ... Why would God do this for ME? Makes no sense and I have to tell you that He knows more about the depths of my nature than even I want to admit... Yet He loves me freely. Can I explain that? NO, But I praise and worship Him for it not understanding all that He does or why. Jesus Christ bought you with His blood and you only need say yes to the invitation. Come on! Be delusional with the rest of us nuts! :-) The original Greek of John 1:1 is very cool. It doesn't exactly say "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, And the Word was God"... it says (exactly) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, And GOD WAS THE WORD" A small play on words but soo COOL!
An after thought that might make an interesting thread... If sin did not enter the world and IF Adam (Both of their names were Adam by the way, Adam renamed woman Eve later at the fall.. (see Gen. 5:2) had eaten from the tree of life and lived forever... here's the question... How would we be able to die and release our spirit so that it could be present with God in Heaven? 2nd Corinthians 5:5-8? So... What if God was willing to show us longsuffering and allow the birth of unsaved people and let them have time on earth in order to interact with those who end up being saved in order to help the ones to be saved along the path to become saved? What if He lets them help those of us who have seen the light of the Lamb reach the end of ourselves so that we get to a place where we cry out to Him for our redemption, our hope, our sanctification, our sanity itself which we so desperately need in a world controlled by forces of darkness that most of you do not either know or ignore and pretend all is ok in your lives when in fact we all know there is a void n humans that can only be filled by the Lord Christ Jesus.
I have tried drugs, sex, drinking (just another name for drugs), self worship, science, material things of this planet all to no avail. Only Jesus Christ can give you what you are missing friend. To say you are missing nothing is the grandest delusion that there is for you are fearfully and wonderfully created by God to have a relationship with Him. My Irish friend is right... He has had an experience in his life called a second birth and you cannot turn from that birth. You can be mad at your father, you can resist Him but in the end, If you were ever born again then you still are. You cannot be unborn, you cannot crawl back into your mothers womb and be turned into a separation of seed and egg and once a son of God you can never become less than that son. Colossians 3 says "You are dead and your life is HIDDEN IN Christ" ... God no longer looks through the blood of the Lamb to see your faults... Once you receive Jesus Christ you are complete in Him and no created thing (ROMANS 8:38,39) (including yourself) can separate you from Him.
Christianity is about you understanding who Jesus is and What He accomplished for YOU, Not what you think you can do for Him. We all think we can please Him by doing good... We can't our righteousness is as filthy rags to Him... (Isaiah 64:6) The only thing that makes us right and complete with God is accepting the sacrifice that He made of His Son on Calvary's Cross.
It seems such a simple thing, that Cross...
Yet it is the hardest thing a man can do is admit that there is more out there than Himself and that you need to yield to another to take your place and punishment ... yet Emmanuel did Just that very thing.... (Emmanuel, a title for the Christ meaning "God With Us") What I found in my own life friend is that in losing all that I had and all that I became, I was set free and am now in love with my creator and am His adopted son... And that is all He wants from you too Brian... everyone... It is true that He also is a God of Wrath... You might say it's YAHWEH or the Hiway! :-)
Religion is always man's attempt to reach God on man's terms, not believing there is only one way....
Jesus Christ is God's attempt to reach man on His terms and His way is Perfect. He says there is only one way... He wrote you a book to tell you about it and He says that there is only ONE book....and it is complete.....
Why did God forgive our sins... Because He wanted to...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Granny Magda, posted 06-08-2008 7:10 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
Dave101
Junior Member (Idle past 5771 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 66 of 479 (469989)
06-08-2008 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Brian
06-08-2008 6:27 PM


Re: A Light at the End Of The Tunnel :-)
The cool thing is Brian, I no longer am fueled by guilt. . . and tell me friend, where would "Guilt" come from in the first place? I mean, if we are just evolved from some primordial goo... why would we have any morality or guilt at all? Have you ever wondered.... Why all the killings at schools now and why are our children acting out worse with every passing generation?
Where was God when those kids were killed in all the schools?...
I'm sorry but we do not allow God in our schools anymore... We replaced Him with a monster called Evolution... Every passing generation gets more of this teaching and as time goes by they realize that if they evolved and there is no creator then why act decent... should I dare say... Why act human at all... why no de-evolve into something anamalistic and be interested only in "ME"... Screw everyone else...
Just wondering...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Brian, posted 06-08-2008 6:27 PM Brian has not replied

  
Dave101
Junior Member (Idle past 5771 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 67 of 479 (469995)
06-08-2008 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Legend
06-08-2008 7:20 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend...
In the fairness of the law...etc...
When is the last time you sacrificed a goat or fatted calf at the altar? After all, this is what is required under the Mosaic system of law to atone for yourself for the upcoming year. When is the last time you took a trip to Jerusalem for the passover, feast of Booths etc? How do you explain Isaiah 9:6 ad hundreds of other passages referring to the coming Christ. (136 direct prophecy's relating to Jesus that He could not have faked)? It is not "Pauline" Theology friend... Have you read 2nd Peter chapter 3? Peter tells you that Paul's teachings ARE SCRIPTURE and if you do not understand them then you also twist the rest of scripture to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:15 and 16) In Acts 15 Peter and the rest of the 12 debate and Peter admits that the Jews now have a hope of salvation in the manner that the Gentiles are now being saved. Acts Chapter 10 with Peter talking to Cornelius Peter mentions salvation is by "Believe in Jesus Christ" completely separate from the law. (Acts 10:42 and 43 ((all the way to 45 and on really)))
Following God's laws are great if you keep them perfectly but I am willing to bet you broke many of them (613 laws, not 10). The OT is full of references that the law is/was a temporary measure until the Christ should come...
forgive my intrusion here amigo,
I had to say this all... maybe not even for your benefit but God says His Word will NOT return to Him void so I hope someone sees this who needs to know...
Dave101

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 06-08-2008 7:20 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dave101
Junior Member (Idle past 5771 days)
Posts: 30
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 68 of 479 (470000)
06-08-2008 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Straggler
06-08-2008 7:28 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Why did God destroy so many people groups in O.T. Times? Because they worshiped false gods and idols. So why would He do differently at judgment day for those who actually have had the truth told to them yet reject Him anyway??? Acts Chapter 17 verses 30 and 31 are very interesting on this subject. The OT non Jews had an excuse... we don't.
Edited by Dave101, : mis spelled word

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 69 of 479 (470053)
06-09-2008 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Straggler
06-08-2008 7:28 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
Who exactly will go to hell in your opinion? All non-believers? All those who believe in "false gods"? Or just those who are "bad" regardless of belief?
Those who will go to Hell are those who can be technically described as being in Adam. That is, dying in the same state they were born in, born into Adam. Those who won't go to Hell are those who are in Christ. They'll have been born again at some point during their lives.
I see no reason why a person must have heard of Christ in order that they be saved - the criterion for being saved would appear to be only that a person believe God. Furthermore, I see no requirement that a person believe in God in order to believe what God is attempting to convince them of.
I expect there will be many very surprised people entering heaven.
-
Do all realistically have the choice that you claim? Do those raised in India of the Hindu faith have equal access to your form of retribution as you (or, I suppose, I)?
Given the above comments? Yes, of course. Everyman is exposed to the glory of Gods creation. Everyone has a conscience. These are more than sufficient to lever a man into salvation.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2008 7:28 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 70 of 479 (470054)
06-09-2008 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by iano
06-09-2008 6:14 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
iano writes:
Given the above comments? Yes, of course. Everyman is exposed to the glory of Gods creation. Everyone has a conscience. These are more than sufficient to lever a man into salvation.
So, logically religions are unnecessary, and can be done away with.
Would people risk the eternal fire if they told lies about God's creation? For example, claiming that the earth is flat, or less than 10,000 years old, or that whales were created as whales, or that we don't descend from a common ancestor with the chimps.
Shouldn't those who have the tools to understand much about God's creation tell the truth about it to the best of their abilities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 6:14 AM iano has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 71 of 479 (470056)
06-09-2008 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by iano
06-09-2008 6:14 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Given the above comments? Yes, of course. Everyman is exposed to the glory of Gods creation. Everyone has a conscience. These are more than sufficient to lever a man into salvation.
Excellent. There is hope for me yet.
So the fact that I consider the bible a work of almost complete fiction won't count against me then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 6:14 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 72 of 479 (470058)
06-09-2008 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by iano
06-08-2008 7:00 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Are you deliberately acting stupid?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by iano, posted 06-08-2008 7:00 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 73 of 479 (470059)
06-09-2008 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:40 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
And, according to Iano, you can even worship false gods if you like, despite yahweh being a jealous God.
Got to love these fundies, any excuse will do at anytime as long as it makes their God look 'good'.
Edited by Brian, : No reason given.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 74 of 479 (470062)
06-09-2008 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Legend
06-08-2008 7:20 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
iano writes:
God, in creating beings with own freewill created the potential for beings to operate outside the boundaries he set for them.
Legend writes:
Freewill has nothing to do with it. You're talking about boundaries set by god for mankind, not for himself. Sin is just a concept in God's mind, not something he has no control over. God chooses to be offended by sin, he doesn't have to.
The boundaries were indeed set by God. He is sovereign and I see no reason why he doesn't justifiably get to set them (as if he needed our permission).
Freewill does come into it because it is freewill that enabled Adam and Eve to decide on whether they would operate inside or outside those boundaries
I'm not sure what you mean by sin just being a concept. If so the concept it that sin is operating outside Gods boundaries.
You are incorrect about God not needing to be offended. If you love what is good you must hate what is evil. If you love kids you must hate the actions of a paedophile.
It's like me giving my young daughter a painting set and saying "right, you can draw whatever you like but if you use yellow I'm going to disown you!". In reality, her choice of colors doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever. It's only if I try to be a bullying, controlling father that I'll impose such meaningless restrictions.
It's not like that at all. Man knowing good from evil results in the world we have today. That is not the same as your child using yellow. God didn't want the world to be the way it is today and put a prohibition up against it.
-
Freewill has nothing to do with it. If you already know what's going to happen, then when it does happen it's a foregone conclusion. An inevitable result.
Not if your knowing what is 'going' to happen arises out of your being simultaneously present at the event of it's happening. Present at the event of a person actually choosing. That observation gets fed back to before the event so that you know what's going to happen because it has happened.
Put it another way, if all events are now to God (our past, our present and our future) the before occurs at the same moment as the after and your point flounders.
-
transitive verb1 a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for b: to grant relief from payment of 2: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) : pardon intransitive verb
Sure. But a forgiven money debt doesn't disappear like magic. What happens is that I (the creditor) do without that which I could have purchased with the money owed me. That 'doing without' is a sufferance on my part. Alternatively, if I want what that money could have bought then I pay for it from my own funds. And suffer in that regard.
Either way, forgiveness isn't issued for free. The forgiver sacrifices in one way or other.
-
First off, God isn't the transgressor, he is the offended party so he doesn't have to give up anything! Mankind, is the transgressor of sin, so what does mankind give up in order to cover their commited sins?
In order to forgive God must pay. Man, if deciding to retain possession of their debt to God, gets to pay for it in Hell. That is the price demanded of man. The transgression occurs in eternity (or in a subset of eternity) therefore the paying of debt occurs eternally.
-
Second, how the hell can God the father and the Son give up a perfect, harmonious relationship when they're allegedly sitting side-by-side in heaven as we speak. Does that mean that their relationship is no longer perfect and harmonious ?!
There is little point in talking time units as the rupture in relationship occurred in eternity. What that means precisely I don't know. Whatever the nature of that rupture it was deemed sufficient by God.
-
Third, even if forgiveness meant that the offended pay for the offence themselves (which it doesn't), then why does the transgressors are made to put their souls up as collateral?
One way to answer this is to utilise the biblical picture of the state of affairs between man in his fallen state ... and God. The picture given is one of war. Man, who inhabits Gods sovereign territory refuses to recognise Gods rights over him and is in a state of rebellion wrt God.
The issue of forgiveness is secondary to the issue of God defeating rebellion. God will bring all people to their knees in the end - every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. He will convince all that they are sinners and wrong and evil - some on this side of death, some on the other side of death.
To those who would surrender during a time of dispensation of mercy he will treat mercifully. To those who surrender by virtue of their ability to fight on being destroyed he will treat mercilessly.
So, it's incorrect to say that you have to put your soul up as collateral for forgiveness. You're going to hand your soul over to God whatever the case - for the rebellion will be certainly crushed.
He will reign over you whether you're in Heaven or Hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 06-08-2008 7:20 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 75 of 479 (470068)
06-09-2008 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by iano
06-09-2008 8:06 AM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Freewill does come into it because it is freewill that enabled Adam and Eve to decide on whether they would operate inside or outside those boundaries.
Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey Him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 8:06 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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