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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 91 of 479 (470152)
06-09-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Legend
06-09-2008 6:05 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
Unless you've created paedophiles and know exactly what they're going to do and when they're going to do it. In which case saying that you love kids and hate paedophiles is grossly hypocritical.
I was under the impression that God created man and woman. From that time on man and woman have created human beings.
I was under the impression that God created the Devil or whatever you want to call him. The Devil deceived the first woman and the man chose the fate of the woman.
From that time until this the Devil and man have been creating all these bad things everyone keeps talking about.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 6:05 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Legend, posted 06-10-2008 1:51 PM ICANT has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 92 of 479 (470153)
06-09-2008 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Straggler
06-09-2008 1:20 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
I don't understand the first sentance here. What exactly does it mean to stand before God in Adam? What would I have to do (or not do) for this to occur?
In Adam / In Christ are positions you can occupy. Consider them conveyor belts you are placed upon. And you can only be on one or the other. The one conveyor leads to death and the other to life. To be in Adam is to be as you were born, an unredeemed sinner being conveyed along towards eternal death. To be in Christ is to be a redeemed sinner which means you have been removed from the death conveyor and have been placed, irrevocably, on the life conveyor. Once on that conveyor eternal life has already begun.
To remain in Adam means you arrive before God to receive Gods judgement pronounced on you. Although I have no idea as to what that might be like and won't be finding out, the mere thought of being faced with a holy God whilst in possession of my sin makes my own blood run cold. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy - if I had one.
What do you have to do to get into Christ? Nothing at all. God does all the work. If you don't get into Christ? You resisted God's attempt to get you to the point where he would place you into Christ. A practical example of such resistance would be to persist in your denial that at your core there is something disturbingly rotten about you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 1:20 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:45 PM iano has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 93 of 479 (470154)
06-09-2008 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by iano
06-09-2008 6:38 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
A practical example of such resistance would be to persist in your denial that at your core there is something disturbingly rotten about you.
Oh I make no such denial. Persistence in denial of that ceased long ago.
To remain in Adam means you arrive before God to receive Gods judgement pronounced on you. Although I have no idea as to what that might be like and won't be finding out, the mere thought of being faced with a holy God whilst in possession of my sin makes my own blood run cold. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy - if I had one.
Well you seem very confident. I might even consider that arrogance and as such a form of "rottenness".
So what does happen to babies who die too young toc comprehend any of this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 6:38 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:50 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 100 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 7:15 PM Straggler has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 94 of 479 (470155)
06-09-2008 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:32 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
Nor is it the fault of the Hindu child raised to believe in Hinduism that they do not believe in Jesus Christ.
It is his parents fault.
His parents beliving what they do is their parents fault.
Going all the way back to the ones that knew the truth.
Their destiny was covered in Message 89
Now the biggest question is, do I have it right? I have spent many
hours studying over the past 59 years because I can't afford to be wrong. My eternal destiny depends upon me being right.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:54 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 95 of 479 (470157)
06-09-2008 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:45 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
So what does happen to babies who die too young toc comprehend any of this?
You remember the story the devil told the first woman in the garden that when she ate the fruit she would know good from evil.
When a person reaches the age where they know as the first woman and man did in the garden they become accountable for themselves at this time.
There are those because of mental conditions that never reach this point.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:45 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 96 of 479 (470158)
06-09-2008 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ICANT
06-09-2008 6:46 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
It is his parents fault.
His parents beliving what they do is their parents fault.
Going all the way back to the ones that knew the truth.
Who did know the truth?
I blame God. He could have made all know. He could at least have made it a level playing field. Punishing individuals for something over which they have little or no control is just wrong.
I want nothing to do with this small minded and punitive God. Anyone with a sense of morality should stand up to this despicable tyrant!! Join my crusade!! Fear not the wrath of the tyrant. Good will triumph in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 6:46 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 7:12 PM Straggler has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 97 of 479 (470160)
06-09-2008 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Legend
06-09-2008 6:05 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
The issue is not whether he needs permission or not, the issue is that he is the one with absolute authority and power over when and where to set the boundaries and who to let in. His reluctance to let people in without them paying some kind of price (to him) is in stark contrast with his alleged love and care for mankind.
Simply put, if you really love and care for someone you forgive them without terms & conditions. Your god is unable/unwilling to do that
Rebels have no place in the kingdom of God. This 'price you pay' is the spinners way of describing the sense behind ceasing your illegitimate rebellion. And being thankful that you aren't squashed like a bug.
You ever heard about the wrath of God poured out on mans wickedness. The Bible is as full of that as it is his love.
I'm saying that sin is just what god says it is. Like me saying that I don't like yellow. However I'm not going to disown my daughter if she draws a yellow painting. See, I can do that and I'm not even all-powerful and all-loving!
God says murder is something he doesn't like. Murder is not yellow. That Gods reason for stating something is sinful strikes you as ludicrous is neither here nor there. Your not in a position to know the full reasoning and consequences. He is.
Your piddly attempt to pitch the worth of your opinion against someone who pulled the universe together would be laughable were it not so descriptive of sinful man at work.
Stand back and take a look at yourself man.
Unless you've created paedophiles and know exactly what they're going to do and when they're going to do it. In which case saying that you love kids and hate paedophiles is grossly hypocritical.
God didn't create paedophiles. He created the potential that people would turn themselves into paedophiles.
You know when in an earlier post I said: "You can continue with your mental acrobatics..". That's exactly why I said it!
Perhaps I was waiting around for something other than the assertion "If you know beforehand then it's a foregone conclusion". Let's play ping pong instead then: "If you know beforehand it's not necessarily a foregone conclusion"
Yes, but that's the forgiver's problem, not the forgiven's. As far as the forgiven party is concerned he has been forgiven. End of.
Exactly. The forgiven party doesn't have to do a thing, the forgiver pays.
The only issue we are differing on is the timing of the forgiveness. It occurs after the rebellion is over - for you don't forgive people you are currently warring with. If they surrender you can either extract payment for their illegitimate deeds or you can forgive them their illegitimate deeds. God forgives the illegitimate deeds of rebels who can be convinced to surrender. He doesn't forgive the illegitimate deeds of those who refuse to surrender and fight to the death. You can't forgive dead men.
Could you point out, in the definition of forgiveness I quoted in the previous post, where are the terms 'retention of debt', 'payment', 'price' being mentioned?
You studiously avoided all reference to the rebellion picture and the place of forgiveness in it. I've repeated it for you to consider a second time round.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 6:05 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 7:43 PM iano has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 98 of 479 (470162)
06-09-2008 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
06-09-2008 5:21 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
His choice was similar to the one I gave my two boys when they got to the point they thought they knew better what they should be allowed to do or not to do. I told them as long as they sat at my table and ate my food and slept in my house they would obey the rules I gave them. If they chose to do otherwise they could find them a place to park their bodies and acquire their needs.
No it wasn't a similar choice at all. Unlike Adam & Eve your two boys know the distinction between good and evil. Unlike God, you don't know what your boys are going to choose. Unlike God, you have no power to protect your kids from all the bad things they can do to themselves. Unlike God, you didn't effectively set a trap for your kids so that you could kick them out of the house.
Man disobeyed. God kicked man out of His Garden and man had to earn his own way. No decedent of this man has any claim to God's Garden.
Man, at that stage, didn't know that what he was doing was bad. Even worse, God knew that man would disobey. The legal term for this would be something along the lines of "entrapment perpetrated on a toddler". What kind of god do you worship ?!
But God made a way man can return to God's Garden.God offers man a full free pardon through the death of God the Son on the Cross.
So God set a trap so that he could kick A&E from heavne and he also forbids all their descendants from entering until they pay the right price!
Seriously, have you really thought about the kind of god you worship ?!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 5:21 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 7:18 PM Legend has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 99 of 479 (470163)
06-09-2008 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:54 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
I blame God. He could have made all know. He could at least have made it a level playing field. Punishing individuals for something over which they have little or no control is just wrong.
Blame anyone you desire to blame.
Straggler writes:
I want nothing to do with this small minded and punitive God. Anyone with a sense of morality should stand up to this despicable tyrant!! Join my crusade!! Fear not the wrath of the tyrant. Good will triumph in the end.
That is exercising your freewill to choose what ever pleases you.
Go for it. Just don't blame me if you are wrong.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2008 11:01 AM ICANT has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 100 of 479 (470164)
06-09-2008 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:45 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Oh I make no such denial. Persistence in denial of that ceased long ago.
So were do you park that knowledge?
Well you seem very confident. I might even consider that arrogance and as such a form of "rottenness".
Arrogance tends to point to oneself as the source of confidence. I point to Christ. I did nothing to get myself into Christ. Absolutely not one thing.
So what does happen to babies who die too young to comprehend any of this?
I'm not all that sure that comprehension of all this has a whole lot to do with it. It all happens at heart level. Not head. You don't comprehend your way into the kingdom. You are placed in the kingdom by God and begin to comprehend it.
I've no idea what happens with babies because the Bible is silent on it as far as I can tell. But babies have a heart too and I'm sure God sees it.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:45 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2008 10:47 AM iano has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 101 of 479 (470167)
06-09-2008 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Legend
06-09-2008 7:06 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
Man, at that stage, didn't know that what he was doing was bad.
Why did man have to know whether it was good or bad?
He was told if you eat the fruit you will die.
It makes no difference if it is good bad or indifferent.
It was an either or statement.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 7:06 PM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 102 of 479 (470174)
06-09-2008 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by iano
06-09-2008 7:03 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
Simply put, if you really love and care for someone you forgive them without terms & conditions. Your god is unable/unwilling to do that
iano writes:
Rebels have no place in the kingdom of God. This 'price you pay' is the spinners way of describing the sense behind ceasing your illegitimate rebellion. And being thankful that you aren't squashed like a bug.
oh, I see! we're now moving the goalposts are we?! The 'God who forgives' has now become 'God who forgives only those who don't oppose him'. Nice one!
iano writes:
That Gods reason for stating something is sinful strikes you as ludicrous is neither here nor there. Your not in a position to know the full reasoning and consequences. He is.
His reasoning and consequences are irrelevant to me and to this discussion. I'm pointing out the contradiction in his alleged words and actions. Simply put, if you really love and care for someone you forgive them without terms & conditions. Your god is unable/unwilling to do that. And you still haven't shown otherwise.
iano writes:
Your piddly attempt to pitch the worth of your opinion against someone who pulled the universe together would be laughable were it not so descriptive of sinful man at work.
yes, sinful me! I suppose I'm lucky your god's the forgiving kind......oh hold on...that's right....he ISN'T!!
iano writes:
Stand back and take a look at yourself man.
Other than perhaps needing a shave, I'd say what a jolly nice package!
Hey, you know what else? I can do something your god can't: I can forgive and forget!
iano writes:
God didn't create paedophiles. He created the potential that people would turn themselves into paedophiles
LOL! that's like saying "our armed forces didn't kill civilans, they just created the potential for civilians to be killed by dropping large amounts of bombs on their houses". Priceless.
iano writes:
Perhaps I was waiting around for something other than the assertion "If you know beforehand then it's a foregone conclusion". Let's play ping pong instead then: "If you know beforehand it's not necessarily a foregone conclusion
oh sorry, I thought you would infer the implied part.
Here, let me make it clearer:
quote:
If you know beforehand and you're the all-powerful creator of the universe who's never wrong then it's a foregone conclusion
There, happier now?
iano writes:
The only issue we are differing on is the timing of the forgiveness.
the only issue that we're differing on is that I'm stating the bleedin' obvious and you're making up stories about a rebellion-crushing, time-travelling, neurotic godlet with a chip on his shoulder, in order to justify your dogma.
At least be honest to yourself, if not the rest of us.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 7:03 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by iano, posted 06-11-2008 4:55 PM Legend has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 103 of 479 (470216)
06-10-2008 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by ICANT
06-09-2008 4:40 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Why do you insist on making God a Man?
I'm not.
I'm referring to God as male because the vast majority of the Bible refers to God as male.
BTW God does not create people. My Mom had an egg that was fertilized by my Father's sperm and I am the result of that union. God only made it possible that could happen.
Who created your soul?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 4:40 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by ICANT, posted 06-10-2008 6:04 PM Brian has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 104 of 479 (470257)
06-10-2008 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by iano
06-09-2008 7:15 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
But babies have a heart too and I'm sure God sees it
If all we need is a good heart without even being consciously aware of god or any of the related paraphenalia then this all seems much more reasonable than ICANTs view (for example).
It does however beg the question as to why we need the bible, religion, punishments, rewards or anything else.
If good heart will suffice ones beliefs and acceptance are neither here nor there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by iano, posted 06-09-2008 7:15 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by iano, posted 06-10-2008 8:50 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 105 of 479 (470260)
06-10-2008 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by ICANT
06-09-2008 7:12 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Blame anyone you desire to blame.
Well who is ultimately responsible? God obviously.
You cannot reasonably punish people for ignorance of something that you provided them no direct personal knowledge of.
This is like a government making secret laws and then arresting peple when they unknowingly break them. Outrageaous.
That is exercising your freewill to choose what ever pleases you.
It is not what pleases me. It is a question of right and wrong. If the God you describe ran a nation (ignoring the whole omnipotence thing for one second) he would be called a vengeful dictator wreaking unjust punishments on his bewildered citizens for crimes they did not even know they had committed. Eternal damnation for blissful ignorance seems a little harsh to say the least.
Honestly ICANT it seems you are too fearful to stand up for what is right. Well I say no! If he exists it is time we stood up to this tyrant and let him know that such unjust punishments will not be tolerated lying down. If we all stand together we can change these wicked ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 06-09-2008 7:12 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by ICANT, posted 06-10-2008 6:37 PM Straggler has replied

  
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