Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy

I've only just barely participated in this thread, so I'm going to transition into moderator mode.This thread is discussing the creationist "teach the strengths and weaknesses of evolution" position. Effective discussion is not possible without a list of evolution's strengths and weaknesses. Presumably evolution's strengths are what is already being taught in science class, and so creationists have to be clear about the weaknesses they would like added to the curriculum. A request to include weaknesses cannot be just a general label under which teachers who are so inclined can express their personal doubts about evolution. The weaknesses proposed for inclusion in science class must be clear and as scientifically well grounded as the strengths.So if the list of scientific weaknesses is not Mel Gabler's list, and if Discovery Institute does not have a list, and if no participant is willing to propose a list, then there's really nothing to discuss.Moderators usually try to be soft-shoe when first intruding upon a thread, and I'm trying to do so now, but just so there's no surprise let me add now that if discussion doesn't find some evolutionary weaknesses to focus on so that discussion can become more fact based then, as someone once said, I'll be back.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

The "piling on" problem is always with us, and moderators try to provide assistance under such circumstances. My advice is to respond to each point or rebuttal just once, no matter how many people make it. If you find yourself receiving complaints of the form, "You didn't reply to my message because obviously you have no answers," (and the endless variations) then just post to Windsor castle and let the moderators deal with it.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

In my own personal view, this thread should first settle what type of issue constitutes a "weakness" in a theory. The scientific goal is to create theories that correspond as closely as possible to reality, so to my mind a "weakness" would be some kind of discorrespondence between theory and reality. While I can't say I've given the lists of weaknesses that have been proposed so far anything resembling a detailed examination, they seem to be lists of unaswered questions (i.e., things we do not know) described in a manner as if they were instead weaknesses.It can often be difficult to tell the difference between a discorrespondence between theory and reality versus an unanswered question. For years the number of neutrinos coming from the Sun was far below that predicted by theory, a seemingly clear discorrespondence between theory and reality, but it later turned out that this belonged in the "something we don't know yet" category when it was discovered that neutrinos can change type on the journey between Sun and Earth, and when we set up detectors for the other neutrino type, voil, there were the missing neutrinos.So my suggestion is that creationists propose weaknesses that can be discussed as to whether they belong in the "weaknesses" category, or in the "things we don't know or understand" category.Please, no replies.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

There's a thread for lodging complaints: Windsor castle. Please don't try to handle moderation issues yourself.It's not like it's rocket science identifying the participant common to threads that degenerate into content-free exchanges of personal criticisms.Just so there's no ambiguity, let me state once again that EvC Forum no longer reverses permanent suspensions. Permanent suspensions are truly permanent now.I suggested to the other moderators that we extend considerable leeway to Randman on this incarnation of his return, since the consequences are so severe. My rough estimate is that the leeway is about half used up so far.Randman's MO is to rise to almost any bait, no matter how subtle, and he'll even be baited by seemingly innocuous passages. Those interested in keeping Randman around as a foil, because in my judgement he makes better and stronger arguments for the creationist position than any other creationist member I can think of, should try to cut him a break and keep things non-controversial in the extreme, because he has no self-control that I can tell.Please, no replies.Edited by Admin, : Add last line.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Are you even trying?

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director