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Author Topic:   The world has turned upside down!!! (Re: McCain vs. Obama for President)
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 46 of 210 (470529)
06-11-2008 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by randman
06-11-2008 2:36 AM


Except
Except we are at least somewhat liked in Europe and Japan. Most Iraqis want us out including many in government.

Revealed: Secret plan to keep Iraq under US control

Iraqi officials fear that the accord, under which US troops would occupy permanent bases, conduct military operations, arrest Iraqis and enjoy immunity from Iraqi law, will destabilise Iraq's position in the Middle East and lay the basis for unending conflict in their country.
...
Iraq's Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, is believed to be personally opposed to the terms of the new pact but feels his coalition government cannot stay in power without US backing.
...
The US is adamantly against the new security agreement being put to a referendum in Iraq, suspecting that it would be voted down. The influential Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has called on his followers to demonstrate every Friday against the impending agreement on the grounds that it compromises Iraqi independence.

Not to mention the fact that in Germany and Japan, US soldiers and contractors are not provided immunity from law OR allowed to arrest German and Japanese citizen at a whim.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by randman, posted 06-11-2008 2:36 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by dawkinsisNOTGod, posted 06-11-2008 10:29 AM Jazzns has not yet responded
 Message 48 by randman, posted 06-11-2008 12:58 PM Jazzns has responded

  
dawkinsisNOTGod 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3940 days)
Posts: 33
From: Lashville, Tennessee
Joined: 06-11-2008


Message 47 of 210 (470530)
06-11-2008 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jazzns
06-11-2008 10:25 AM


Re: Except
Why should they have those powers though? Word.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jazzns, posted 06-11-2008 10:25 AM Jazzns has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 48 of 210 (470596)
06-11-2008 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jazzns
06-11-2008 10:25 AM


Re: Except
Except we are at least somewhat liked in Europe and Japan. Most Iraqis want us out including many in government.

Japan and Germany didn't like us at all initially. As far as Al Sadr, we should have gotten rid of him a long time ago.

On referendums, I am all for that. If the Iraqi people want us to leave, fine. We go and wash our hands of the matter. Personally, I think we should demand that oil revenues be offset to pay for our presence until the Iraqi regime can take over completely.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Jazzns, posted 06-11-2008 10:25 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Jazzns, posted 06-12-2008 11:55 AM randman has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 49 of 210 (470756)
06-12-2008 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by randman
06-11-2008 12:58 PM


Re: Except
Japan and Germany didn't like us at all initially.

The big difference back then is that when a country surrendered it meant something MUCH different. In that kind of war the REASON that countries surrendered was entirely because the populace was so war torn that it gave up. Becase our position was that we were going to be, "greeted as liberators" by the Iraqi people, we bascially relegated ourselves to playing Iraqi politics which is also the reason we are entirely unable to take out Sadr.

As far as Al Sadr, we should have gotten rid of him a long time ago.

That is one of the most foolish things we could possibly do. We would make him a martyr, another leader would spring up who is more hawkish, and Iraq would truly be in a civil war. Sadr is using his power to leverage the government. When he doesn't have Malaki death squads out hunting his people Sadr is actually quite content to simply protest.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by randman, posted 06-11-2008 12:58 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by randman, posted 06-12-2008 3:13 PM Jazzns has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 50 of 210 (470776)
06-12-2008 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jazzns
06-12-2008 11:55 AM


Re: Except
Looks to me like Al Sadr wants to form a Hezbollah type situation in Iraq where a militia and their leaders are essentially not subordinate to the democratic process and government. I don't think that's a recipe for stability. It may take a bloodbath but the rebellion needs to be put down. Our own first president, Washington, put down the whiskey rebellion. If the Iraqi government allows Sadr's militia to stay intact, the security situation may never stabilize.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jazzns, posted 06-12-2008 11:55 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Jazzns, posted 06-13-2008 10:54 AM randman has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 51 of 210 (470900)
06-13-2008 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by randman
06-12-2008 3:13 PM


Another reason not to vote for McCain
Your last comment underscores another big reason I believe McCain is the wrong choice.

I don't think that's a recipe for stability. It may take a bloodbath but the rebellion needs to be put down.

In fact this was tried by Malaki and it failed. Just as our pre-emptive war failed to achieve stability.

What Malaki ended up doing is flying some diplomats over to Iran to negotiate a truce with Sadr which is why the streets are slightly more peaceful today.

This is in STARK contrast to Bush and McCain who got up on their high horse and said that it is useless to engage in diplomacy with the likes of Iran or Syria. Everyone got all up in a tizzy over it and this was AFTER the news had reported that Malaki had negotiated peace with Sadr via Iran.

Even more heinous was that Bush made this proclamation from Israel which McCain endorsed fully, only to find out a few days later that Israel had been negotiating with Syria for months!

So these guys, Bush and McCain, stood up there on a stage and railed against a foreign policy, sandwiched in time between two modern and in context examples of that policy actually working.

Its not just that they are on the wrong side of the fence, they can't even see the fence.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by randman, posted 06-12-2008 3:13 PM randman has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 43 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 52 of 210 (471058)
06-14-2008 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by randman
06-11-2008 2:36 AM


randman responds to me:

quote:
He is saying we can have bases there like we do in Germany for years to come after the peace is established

And exactly how long are we going to keep killing off our Soldiers waiting for the peace to be established? The reason why we were able to maintain a military presence in Germany and Japan is because they surrendered to us. Iraq didn't. They will never accept us there and they are in the middle of a civil war.

Why on earth should we be the ones they're shooting at?

quote:
not constant combat ops, and he is right.

In a perfect world, of course. Iraq is not a perfect world. We didn't have any Servicemember die after we defeated Germany or Japan. We've had nothing but death after death since the overthrow of the Iraqi government. How many more of our Servicemembers need to die?

quote:
may make sense, as a stabalizing factor like we have done in Europe.

They're in the middle of a civil war. Exactly what "stabilizing factor" have we been?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Grizz
Member (Idle past 3642 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 53 of 210 (471428)
06-16-2008 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rrhain
06-07-2008 3:31 PM


And whose fault is that? He's written a couple of books. Have you read them?

Regarding Audacity of Hope: I purchased the audio book on Itunes. I have been listening to the audio over the course of the past week and just finished up.

I would say I have more respect for Obama on a personal level now that I have heard at least a bit more about his vision. Unfortunately, however, the more I listened the more I kept thinking that the book might have been better titled, "'The way things would be in a perfect world." I still have not heard anything of substance which might lead me to conclude he has any specific plans to make his vision a reality.

A couple of things I kept waiting for but never heard: First, I was hoping he would take a controversial stance on something - anything. Iraq, Gay Marriage, Abortion -- just take a stand and don't wish-wash in the middle. In the book, he says all the right things but does so without really ever taking a stand on anything specific. Of course all Americans need health care, good paying jobs, and social stability. What is your plan to make this happen? I never heard the answer to this. In the book, Obama seemed to be giving a motivational speech rather than supplying a specific agenda for change. At times, it is as if Obama was implicitly telling the reader that, "I am the solution to every problem that faces America."

It also irks me that both candidates give lip service to the middle-class but fail to address a very glaring problem for many middle-class Americans: The "American Dream" seems to be going overseas to India as more and more jobs are out-sourced, especially in the CIS and Tech sectors. Many of these middle-class, "Good Paying Jobs" are being sold for the lowest bid to foreign employment agencies. I believe neither candidate will do anything to address this because of the influence of the lobby.

Obama supplies a wonderfully positive and upbeat account of a vision for unity, justice, and happiness for all. Unfortunately, Audacity of Hope reads more like Plato's Republic and never goes beyond an abstract vision. I hate to say it, but Obama is "hoping" for too much. This isn't a perfect world and Washington doesn't give two shakes about words, outside of their PR value. If Obama hopes to accomplish anything, he needs to learn how to be a slick politician -- that's reality.

The next President will face very serious challenges with very serious consequences. If Obama hopes to accomplish anything, he needs to be less of a visionary and more of a pragmatist. Forget about the earth-shattering changes -- it's not going to happen overnight. Develop a realistic agenda and stick to your guns. I have more respect for a politicians who tells it like it is, even when the vision is not popular. Obama has not really stood on any platform -- he has just made very idealistic references to justice and the pursuit of happiness.

Where's the beef?

Perhaps I will learn more in the debates.

Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rrhain, posted 06-07-2008 3:31 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-17-2008 6:52 AM Grizz has not yet responded
 Message 55 by Jazzns, posted 07-10-2008 12:42 PM Grizz has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 54 of 210 (471488)
06-17-2008 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Grizz
06-16-2008 8:21 PM


What On Earth Can Obama's Agenda Possibly Be?
You know, the man has a website.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Grizz, posted 06-16-2008 8:21 PM Grizz has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 55 of 210 (474741)
07-10-2008 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Grizz
06-16-2008 8:21 PM


Radically Sensible
I must have read a different book than you did because what I got out of it was that he does take a firm stance. He just happens to take a firm stance on being sensible.

It sort of a difficult position to take because the people who make noise on the far ends of certain policies often get the attention. They are the ones who have PACs and protesters and loud mouths. You will be hard pressed to find anybody standing in front of a government building holding up a sign saying, "LETS BE REASONABLE".

I also think you are reading the book without the proper expectations. This was not a policy book, this is a personal philosophy book.

I'll repeat what another poster said on this thread, if you want his exact plans and policies, he does in fact have a website.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Grizz, posted 06-16-2008 8:21 PM Grizz has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 56 of 210 (474751)
07-10-2008 2:30 PM


quote:
I also think you are reading the book without the proper expectations. This was not a policy book, this is a personal philosophy book.


so you have to want to believe the hype, before you can actually read the hype?

he was my senator for 4 years (state and federal), no thanks i've had enough of him.


Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Jazzns, posted 07-10-2008 2:59 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 57 of 210 (474753)
07-10-2008 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Artemis Entreri
07-10-2008 2:30 PM


so you have to want to believe the hype, before you can actually read the hype?

Do you have anything to discuss or do you just want to ask stupid questions?

I didn't say anything about believing it. I said that if you are reading the book expecting him to outline exactly what he plans to do, that is not what the book is about.

Its like reading Lord of the Rings and complaining about the lack of realism. If you go into a book with unreasonable expectations, of course you are going to come out disappointed.

he was my senator for 4 years (state and federal), no thanks i've had enough of him.

Don't need your vote anyway. Good riddance. Illinois is going for him in a landslide anyway.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-10-2008 2:30 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-10-2008 4:40 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 58 of 210 (474758)
07-10-2008 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Jazzns
07-10-2008 2:59 PM


quote:
Do you have anything to discuss or do you just want to ask stupid questions?



nah just trying to figure why ppl fall for the hype.

quote:
Don't need your vote anyway. Good riddance. Illinois is going for him in a landslide anyway.

he never got it in any of the previous elections, and probably won't. but what a great campaign of isolation you paint for this canidate, maybe he isn't for everybody.

I left P.R. Illinois anyway. im here to keep Virginia red.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Jazzns, posted 07-10-2008 2:59 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Jazzns, posted 07-10-2008 10:47 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2082 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 59 of 210 (474778)
07-10-2008 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Artemis Entreri
07-10-2008 4:40 PM


he never got it in any of the previous elections, and probably won't. but what a great campaign of isolation you paint for this canidate, maybe he isn't for everybody.

I don't think that freedom for narrow minded partisans constitutes isolation.

Also he certainly isn't for everybody. If you are against basic civil rights, social justice, and the American way of life before it was hijacked by neo-con fascists, then Obama certainly isn't for you and I would recommend you stick to your party of whom only 30% of the American public admit to being a member of.

I left P.R. Illinois anyway. im here to keep Virginia red.

Good luck with that! And even if you succeed, enjoy your 2 democratic senators and ever increasing progressive population.

Maybe with that avatar of yours you might just be better of seceding instead. Or didn't anyone tell you that the North won?

Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-10-2008 4:40 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-10-2008 11:04 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2399 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 60 of 210 (474783)
07-10-2008 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Jazzns
07-10-2008 10:47 PM


quote:
Also he certainly isn't for everybody. If you are against basic civil rights, social justice, and the American way of life before it was hijacked by neo-con fascists, then Obama certainly isn't for you and I would recommend you stick to your party of whom only 30% of the American public admit to being a member of.



lol, who knew the comedy this site had to offer!?!

quote:

Good luck with that! And even if you succeed, enjoy your 2 democratic senators and ever increasing progressive population.

progressive, lol you cant be serious. the ONLY Progressive president was Theodore Roosevelt (a republican BTW).

quote:
Maybe with that avatar of yours you might just be better of seceding instead. Or didn't anyone tell you that the North won?

yeah they did, thanks to the republicans


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Jazzns, posted 07-10-2008 10:47 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Jazzns, posted 07-10-2008 11:59 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
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