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Author Topic:   Help me enlighten my wife...
iano
Member (Idle past 16 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 31 of 40 (464728)
04-28-2008 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by killinghurts
04-27-2008 7:47 PM


What's her response to the "Kidz Kwestion"? As in: leaving them without a mom?

Perhaps you could have her make her case here?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by killinghurts, posted 04-27-2008 7:47 PM killinghurts has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 32 of 40 (464798)
04-29-2008 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
04-27-2008 5:17 PM


Re: side note
Hi RAZD,

RAZD writes:

How do we know that she is not right and you are the one that does the twisting?

The reasons given for not accepting a blood transfusion as stated by the Watch Tower Society is the scriptures given in Message 13 by killinghurts that his wife quotes.

Here are the Scriptures:

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Leviticus 7:26 Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

If you can find in these scriptures where transfusion could be denied she could be right.

The Watch Tower Society interpets eating blood, digesting blood, the same thing as a blood transfusion. If a blood transfusion and eating blood is the same then they are correct and I am wrong.

In Message 24 you mentioned self transfusion, good idea. But not allowed under Watch Tower Society Rules.

Here is what I found on the Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site. Under Appendix, Jehovah's Witnesses--The Surgical/Ethical Challenge. Then scroll down to Witnesses position on Therapy.

While these verses are not stated in medical terms, Witnesses view them as ruling out transfusion of whole blood, packed RBCs, and plasma, as well as WBC and platelet administration. However, Witnesses' religious understanding does not absolutely prohibit the use of components such as albumin, immune globulins, and hemophiliac preparations; each Witness must decide individually if he can accept these.

Witnesses believe that blood removed from the body should be disposed of, so they do not accept autotransfusion of predeposited blood. Techniques for intraoperative collection or hemodilution that involve blood storage are objectionable to them. However, many Witnesses permit the use of dialysis and heart-lung equipment (non-blood-prime) as well as intraoperative salvage where the extracorporeal circulation is uninterrupted; the physician should consult with the individual patient as to what his conscience dictates.

The Witnesses do not feel that the Bible comments directly on organ transplants; hence, decisions regarding cornea, kidney, or other tissue transplants must be made by the individual Witness.

Personally I see no difference with an organ transplant and a blood transplant.

RAZD writes:

This could form a basis for an interesting thread.

It probably would if it could be agreed on a final authority for what is right and what is wrong. But that is impossible and the reason we have over 34,000 different religious denominations in the world.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 04-27-2008 5:17 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 3069 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 33 of 40 (465028)
05-02-2008 1:45 AM


Hi guys, I don't think there's anything more that I can offer to this topic. I think I'll take the advice a few of you have said and love her for who she is and what she believes in.

Hey at least we will never be stuck for things to talk about :)


  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 34 of 40 (470921)
06-13-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-23-2008 11:43 PM


Cognitive dissonance
So it's here in the logic that I am stuck. To me the above quote lets JW's pretty much change ANYHING they want to "interpret" from the bible.

Secondly I love my wife and if something happens where she requires a blood transfusion, I would blame myself for not being able to enlighten her in the purity of lateral, logical and sane thinking.

When two people marry who are of opposite religions or belief systems, especially if they are very convicted about those beliefs, it tends to cause tension in the marriage. I wouldn't say that it is insurmountable, but if a large portion of these two people's beliefs are counter to one another, it will eventually cause some kind of a tension.

I would say that you should do whatever you can to respect her beliefs and request that she do the same for you. That doesn't mean placate her by never discussing it, but rather just be patient with her.

I agree that JW beliefs are odd, but she is entitled to her beliefs, especially if they were forged before you even met her. If I were you I would not go out of my way to crush her beliefs. I assume that you would not like it if she was trying to convert you every day of your marriage, so we have to go with the Golden Rule on this one, and don't prostyletize to her either. For some reason, some non-believers seem to think that they are exempt from preaching, but they aren't.

You also have to be careful for causing some cognitive dissonance. Even if you could convince/deceive her that her treasured beliefs are false, you may not like what might happen to her mind as a result. Her prospective disposition may end up being worse than it was before. You may think she is ignorant now, but she may just become completely lost and depressed. You would have to appreciate the situation for what it is. Imagine everything you thought was real was in fact a facade. What would that do to her? What would that do to you? We aren't talking about finding out that the Easter Bunny is not real, we are talking about an entire ideology, and possibly her very identity, wiped clean.

She may not know how to handle that, and she become insular to the point where the girl you married is now unrecognizable. I would suggest that you take that very seriously. I doubt very much that you could convince her otherwise in one or two conversations. I don't think you would want to either, because having her worldview collapse so suddenly could be catastrophic to her psyche.

The very best thing you can do is to love and support your and to respect her beliefs. Since her beliefs are a source of concern for you because you love her, then this should be done slowly. If your logic is so sound and so impeachable, then she will all but be forced to concede to the evidence. If you remember nothing else: Slow and steady wins the race.

Bombarding her with anti-apologetics and film on evolution, or what have you, is about as annoying to a Christian as creation films and "What would Jesus Do" pamphlets to atheists.

That's my suggestion. Glean from it what you will.


“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo
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 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 04-23-2008 11:43 PM killinghurts has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2974 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 35 of 40 (470927)
06-13-2008 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-23-2008 11:43 PM


Your best approach is to talk with her about the Bible, what it says on these issues and study it with her. It may be if you can show her where the Bible, and accepting it as the word of God, disagrees with the JWs on some of these issues, then maybe she will consider the peculiar doctrines from the JWs not in line with the scriptures but maybe not. I suspect it will require you to really take the believer's perspective seriously and come up with theology from a believer's perspective that disgrees with some of the JW ideas. In fact, it may take you yourself taking the things of God much more seriously and really seeking God out with an open mind. Otherwise, what do you have to offer her?

Materialist presumptions?

Take it slow. Offer to read the Bible with her and talk about what it says.

Admit that sure, God can and does communicate with anointed people but why only the JWs. What about the signs and wonders in the Bible? Are they happening with the JWs, for example? Just a little thought since the gospels promise to "confirm the word with signs following."

I am sure she has an answer but it may not stand up to biblical scrutiny. Keep in mind she probably accepts the Bible as God's Word, and you can talk with her about, hey, what about before the JWs came along. Didn't the Pope also say that what they said was more important than your direct experience and reading of the Bible.

There's a lot of angles. Take it slow and be peaceable and if you are just wanting her to become secular, give it up. You most likely will not like the result. When you come across biblical statements contradicting JW theology, ask her to pray about it. Heck, if you can, pray about it yourself too.

But keep in mind if you are trying to convince her God isn't real or evolution is true, ask yourself why you are doing that? You loved/love a girl that is a believer, not an unbeliever. Trying to make her into someone that takes the doubting, skeptical perspective will probably harm your marriage. You married a woman of faith for a reason. it's part of her make-up and constitution.

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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brendatucker
Member (Idle past 3177 days)
Posts: 168
From: West Hills, CA
Joined: 05-22-2008


Message 36 of 40 (470944)
06-13-2008 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
04-26-2008 7:31 AM


News about life
I like your situation and I hope you aren't going to discourage any more comments because even if you can't discuss the issue any further with your wife, you can still discuss the issue with us. Who knows? Maybe you will change.

I like what you said about being poor and being alone and think about how we should have sympathy for people who cling to the emotions that permeate this feeling of "light" that we get from others practicing religion.

I also appreciate the list you give in your first post which is this:

a) The world is no older than 6000 years.
b) There were once people who lived to the ripe old age of 900.
c) God speaks to the Watch Tower (or more specifically through Jehovah's Witness' "anointed" ones) who in turn "educate" the followers.
d) Blood transfusions are against the word of God, thus if any injury would result in the necessity of a blood transfusion she would *refuse* and die for her beliefs.

When you introduced yourself, you gave your occupation, a strong dedication that you have to science methodolgy, and a philosophical belief system that you place yourself in, but when you introduced your wife, you just gave a compliment that she is lovely.

I used to work as a real estate appraiser and now with the economy so bad, I don't have anything to do with my time. I don't want to let the housekeeper go, but I should so that we can contribute more to the college funds.

You might like to hear about a new theory of evolution that I write about on my webpage, but I hope that you see the predicament that some people are in without livelihoods that occupy their time. You are committed to thinking. It is in your work, in your hobbies, and in your ideology, but thinking doesn't produce jobs for some people. What they do with their minds could be characterized as "a miss" by some people who find no redeeming benefit from the person's thoughts.

I know because I have struggled for over 13 years trying to promote a new theory of evolution. I don't have anything to do with my time all day and my son wants to be picked up from school. My job was very hard and I worked long hours, but now I don't seem to be fit. So I exercise and occasionally try a post here.

Back to the subject. First and foremost, isn't it possible for your wife to store parts of her own blood in some way that would make it possible for her blood to be returned to her if the need arises?

Education from the Watchtower isn't just education. It is also news and stimulating questioning. It's nice to be in group that "thinks" together and I hope you encourage her.

Whether 900 or 6000 isn't really so important. I too have studied new age religions where I learned that humans have lived on earth for 300 million years according to the claim by theosophists and then again by Ascended Master Saint Germain, we hear that humans and earth have only been here for 4 million years. A direct contradiction even though both organizations claim to be Saint Germain associated. I think part of the solution to the claims can be attributed to nomenclature. What is human and earth to one person may not be distinct enough in definition and hence couldn't we claim that human is limited only to this current form of life we know and earth too when we speak of it, refers only to this type of earth - not an earth with other life on it?

And may I ask, "Is there any room at the top? I'd like to move up."


This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 37 of 40 (470948)
06-13-2008 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
06-13-2008 1:28 PM


Your best approach is to talk with her about the Bible, what it says on these issues and study it with her. It may be if you can show her where the Bible, and accepting it as the word of God, disagrees with the JWs on some of these issues, then maybe she will consider the peculiar doctrines from the JWs not in line with the scriptures but maybe not.

The bigger issue is that he is an agnostic, so showing her common JW misinterpretations would be the least of his concern.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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brendatucker
Member (Idle past 3177 days)
Posts: 168
From: West Hills, CA
Joined: 05-22-2008


Message 38 of 40 (470951)
06-13-2008 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
06-13-2008 3:01 PM


Side Question
Do you think that if this new theory of evolution were accepted, that many agnostics and those in religions other than Christianity would aspire to participating in Christianity?

Since theosophy encourages a study of all religions, which some people may find importune and Saint Germain Foundation requires such strict adherence to purity of life: abstaining from all alcohol, meat-eating, and often a toned down sexual life, Christianity still serves a very useful purpose for those who would rather be more mainstream in their approach, leaving the hard-core, radical, and serious-minded researchers the job of assessing and manipulating the data in the two new age groups I mentioned.

That's a pretty long sentence.

Christianity could take in lots more students because they have a nice middle-of-the-road approach that more people will be willing to participate in. These same people could satisfy their curiosity by reading about steps being taken and accomplishments being made by the researchers and schools can just be kept out of it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-13-2008 3:01 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-13-2008 3:55 PM brendatucker has responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5622
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 39 of 40 (470956)
06-13-2008 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by brendatucker
06-13-2008 3:34 PM


Re: Side Question
Do you think that if this new theory of evolution were accepted, that many agnostics and those in religions other than Christianity would aspire to participating in Christianity?

I don't know what this new theory of evolution entails, so I really can't make an honest assessment at this time.

Christianity could take in lots more students because they have a nice middle-of-the-road approach that more people will be willing to participate in. These same people could satisfy their curiosity by reading about steps being taken and accomplishments being made by the researchers and schools can just be kept out of it.

If Christianity still means what I think it means, following the dictates of Jesus, then a cushy, middle-of-the-road outlook is in direct contravention of his teachings. For Jesus it was not a popularity contest, or a to recruit people to a new religion, it was, and still is, supposed to represent a lifestyle submissive to the perfect will of God. It is about doing the right thing, regardless of whether or not other people agree.

Still, though, you imply something very interesting. Jesus gave the Great Commission, to preach the word. Some people have not mastered that art. Because the topic of God makes for discomfort for many people. Either you alienate or you bring in.

Street corner evangelism is something that even I avoid. I see it as alienating and ineffective, in general.


“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by brendatucker, posted 06-13-2008 3:34 PM brendatucker has responded

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brendatucker
Member (Idle past 3177 days)
Posts: 168
From: West Hills, CA
Joined: 05-22-2008


Message 40 of 40 (470963)
06-13-2008 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Hyroglyphx
06-13-2008 3:55 PM


Intro to Christianity
Even those people who haven't heard "a new theory of evolution" are able to conceive of levels in their desire, need, and ability to perform according to the dictates of religion. There has always been plenty of room for newcomers or beginners, as well as plenty of depth for those who give their life to it. There is also plenty of flexibility even within Christianity for people to branch out, seek new horizons, visit those Christians with slightly different approaches, etc.

The demands of our time present the individual with intensive occupational situations that are not always conducive to social interactions and until society reorders itself or makes provisions for occurrences that are beyond our control, the ability, need, or desire of the person is not always the deciding factor in who qualifies for the benefits of Christianity.

The Great Dispensation provides as much payment for the latecomers to the field as it does to those who have worked the whole day. In other words, we all get paid in "ascension by the girasas" whether or not we are there the whole time or a new arrival.

Limitations in a person's character or will, just make us ask all the more questions about how this ascension is to occur. We know that our bodies change and become improved by having the girasas live in us. We know that the girasas bring powers, but we don't all know how to handle them or communicate about it. We live apart from research facilities and methods. We want science to take us in so we can learn more about how to apply what we know and discover what we don't.

Talking about what I discovered falls on deaf ears everywhere, when in actuality, I just want to be able to pick up a book again and be interested. No one (not novelist or historian) is writing about my discovery and so when I read, I feel like I am reading old worn-out material that needs refreshing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-13-2008 3:55 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
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