Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,390 Year: 3,647/9,624 Month: 518/974 Week: 131/276 Day: 5/23 Hour: 1/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Re-Problems With The Big Bang Theory
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 46 of 273 (471230)
06-15-2008 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Agobot
06-15-2008 4:11 PM


Re: Re-space
Is the Big Bang theory going to crumble to dust if redshifts are proven to not have been caused by spatial expansion?
Yes, of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Agobot, posted 06-15-2008 4:11 PM Agobot has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 47 of 273 (471231)
06-15-2008 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by cavediver
06-15-2008 3:26 PM


Re: Update Your Model
cavediver writes:
Yes, well done ICANT. This has been our position for 20 years. But there are ideas other than inflation as I have just stated. Or are you refuting that?
How do you refute an idea?
But when did an idea become a solution to a problem?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2008 3:26 PM cavediver has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 48 of 273 (471232)
06-15-2008 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
06-15-2008 4:18 PM


Re: Update Your Model
So which version of Inflation as I asked you for earlier.
Who cares? Almost certainly none of them - it will be a mixture of several of the ideas, but we will not know for sure until we know the Planckian physics, which we may not know for decades. As we work out ways around the various problems with the specific models, this may allow us a route towards the actual Planckian physics. This is how we progress. But a period of inflation is simply a de-Sitter-like phase to the early Universe - an exceptionally simple concept that sweeps away many of the earlier issues with the BBT. And we see the evidence of inflation in the CMBR. Are you refuting that evidence?
Scaler field driven inflation does not eliminate the singularity.
No mechanisms of inflation eliminate the singularity, so this is hardly an issue, is it?
Then there is the cosmological constant problem.
Not an issue of the BBT. It is an issue of our understanding of Planckian physics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by ICANT, posted 06-15-2008 4:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Agobot, posted 06-15-2008 4:49 PM cavediver has replied
 Message 52 by ICANT, posted 06-15-2008 10:10 PM cavediver has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5550 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 49 of 273 (471236)
06-15-2008 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by cavediver
06-15-2008 4:33 PM


Re: Update Your Model
Cavediver, if the universe is infinitely small now(as it has been 13.7 billion years ago), is the singularity still intact(since you are proponent of the BBT)? Are we located within a singularity? If it's infinitely small, what makes you say the singularity exists at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2008 4:33 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2008 4:53 PM Agobot has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 50 of 273 (471237)
06-15-2008 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Agobot
06-15-2008 4:49 PM


Re: Update Your Model
if the universe is infinitely small now
Well, it's not...
If it's infinitely small, what makes you say the singularity exists at all?
It isn't, and I never said the singularity exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Agobot, posted 06-15-2008 4:49 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Agobot, posted 06-15-2008 5:03 PM cavediver has not replied

Agobot
Member (Idle past 5550 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 51 of 273 (471240)
06-15-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by cavediver
06-15-2008 4:53 PM


Re: Update Your Model
quote:
Then is it just expanding into itself and we just think the universe is billions of light years across because we are actually so small?
quote:
Yep, you got it.
  —cavediver
When you say the universe is expanding into itself, do you mean the universe is not expanding into itself but expanding in general? The metric expansion theory(essential part of the BBT) says distances between objects in space remain the same. Doesn't that mean that we are in a singularity?
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2008 4:53 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by IamJoseph, posted 06-16-2008 4:30 AM Agobot has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 52 of 273 (471300)
06-15-2008 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by cavediver
06-15-2008 4:33 PM


Re: Update Your Model
cavediver writes:
And we see the evidence of inflation in the CMBR. Are you refuting that evidence?
I didn't see you present that evidence.
How can anyone refute what is not presented.
But Robert H. Brandenberger, says there are some problems with inflation. Here
5 Problems of Inflationary Cosmology
5.1 Fluctuation Problem
A generic problem for all realizations of potential-driven inflation studied up to now concerns the amplitude
of the density perturbations which are induced by quantum fluctuations during the period of
exponential expansion [26, 27]. From the amplitude of CMB anisotropies measured by COBE, and from
the present amplitude of density inhomogeneities on scales of clusters of galaxies, it follows that the
amplitude of the mass fluctuations M/M on a length scale given by the comoving wavenumber k at the
time tf (k) when that scale crosses the Hubble radius in the FRW period is of the order 10’5.
However, as was discussed in detail in the previous section, the present realizations of inflation based
on scalar quantum field matter generically [71] predict a much larger value of these fluctuations, unless
a parameter in the scalar field potential takes on a very small value. For example, as discussed at the
end of the previous section, in a single field chaotic inflationary model with quartic potential the mass
fluctuations generated are of the order 1021/2. Thus, in order not to conflict with observations, a value
of smaller than 10’12 is required. There have been many attempts to justify such small parameters
based on specific particle physics models, but no single convincing model has emerged.
With the recent discovery [40, 41] that long wavelength gravitational fluctuations may be amplified
exponentially during reheating, a new aspect of the fluctuation problem has emerged. All models in which
such amplification occurs (see e.g. [48] for a discussion of the required criteria) are ruled out because the
amplitude of the fluctuations after back-reaction has set in is too large, independent of the value of the
coupling constant [49].qs
He also says in his conclusions:
Conclusions
Inflationary cosmology is an attractive scenario. It solves some problems of standard cosmology and leads
to the possibility of a causal theory of structure formation. The specific predictions of an inflationary
model of structure formation, however, depend on the specific realization of inflation, which makes the
idea of inflation hard to verify or falsify. Many models of inflation have been suggested, but at the present
time none are sufficiently distinguished to form a "" inflationary theory.
He says inflation is a nice idea. But there is no theory of inflation yet.
So the crutch that is supposed to fix BBT's problems is crawling around on the ground.
Andrew R. Liddle had this to say: Here
At present, inflation is the most promising candidate theory for the origin of perturbations in the Universe. Different inflation models lead to discernibly different predictions for these perturbations, and hence high-accuracy measurements are able to distinguish between models, excluding either all or the vast majority of them. Since its inception,
Inflation seems like a good idea because without it BBT is in a lot of trouble.
Inflation was added on to the BBT because it was necessary or the BBT had to be discarded. Now some 27 years after inflation was proposed the solution is no closer.
I think you said it best several months ago when you said we need a new theory. I am still satisfied with mine.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2008 4:33 PM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by onifre, posted 06-16-2008 1:33 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 120 by Force, posted 06-18-2008 5:56 PM ICANT has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 53 of 273 (471337)
06-16-2008 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Agobot
06-15-2008 6:57 AM


quote:
Where is the evidence for this claim that there is no space beyond our universe?
I pivotal question, and one which can clear the confusion.
I think the confusion is based on space also being seen or argued as NOTHINGNESS, and the reason it is assumed as always existed. This factor cannot be proven or disproven, and it should be cast out of the menu. In any case it represents only the desperate refuge it has adopted as a last gasp: nothingness can account for anything - perhaps even against the finite premise. But it is not vested in evidence or proof.
The best way to see nothingness is as NO THINGS - which refers to all things and anything. One cannot say carbon or heat energy always existed because it was contained in the pre-uni space of nothingness, even in another state or form. Because this violates the finite premise. IMHO, a nothingness has to contain something, to be classified as an actual nothingness - else there is no contrast factor.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Agobot, posted 06-15-2008 6:57 AM Agobot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 54 of 273 (471340)
06-16-2008 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Agobot
06-15-2008 5:03 PM


Re: Update Your Model
The universe is not expanding, but rather, the original point is becoming larger. The diameter of the original point has expanded to the current size, and all that exists is still within that point. The expansion is harmogenous - equally in all directions, around itself - there being no other place to go. We see the uni as expanding, because we are looking at one section from another sector of that same point, namely within the universe. There is no outside facet; everything uni-contained is still uni-contained - only the size of the container has enlarged.
We emerged much later, perhaps at a mid-point [because we can see all sides, past and future sectors]. Its like the BB represents a marble, and that marble started to inflate, namely it expanded equally in all directions; here, our solar system emerged at some time into the expansion, and the expansion continued therafter passed it. This is also a reason why the uni does/must have a centre, and this is not dependent on being able to determine that centre. The centre is now within the expanded original BB particle.
If the above view is taken - there is no alternative to creationism - there had to have been an external factor impacting on the original particle, and there was nothing else whatsoever around.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Agobot, posted 06-15-2008 5:03 PM Agobot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by onifre, posted 06-16-2008 12:48 PM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 60 by Force, posted 06-16-2008 6:16 PM IamJoseph has not replied
 Message 61 by Force, posted 06-16-2008 6:18 PM IamJoseph has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2971 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 55 of 273 (471376)
06-16-2008 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by IamJoseph
06-16-2008 4:30 AM


Re: Update Your Model
The universe is not expanding, but rather, the original point is becoming larger.
Huh???
This is also a reason why the uni does/must have a centre, and this is not dependent on being able to determine that centre. The centre is now within the expanded original BB particle.
If you can't determine where the center is, then how could you simply say it is there?
I didn't see how you concluded that...
If the above view is taken
Which it shouldn't be...
- there is no alternative to creationism
Creation as an unguilded mechanism, Yes(i.e. Quantum fluctuations etc...) However, religiously based creationism(i.e. Christianity etc...) or plainly as a God, then No. There are many alternatives to that, like Quantum fluctuations...
- there had to have been an external factor impacting on the original particle, and there was nothing else whatsoever around.
First you need to clarify what you mean by external factor, and where would 'external' be located? External to what?

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by IamJoseph, posted 06-16-2008 4:30 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by IamJoseph, posted 06-16-2008 1:46 PM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2971 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 56 of 273 (471382)
06-16-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by ICANT
06-15-2008 10:10 PM


Re: Update Your Model
Inflation seems like a good idea because without it BBT is in a lot of trouble.
How so if we still have the fact that the Universe is expanding?
Inflation is just the name given to the catalist for expantion. But we know it was small and we know it is quite large now, something did this right?
I believe what cavediver, and im sure he can answer for himself, is explaining is that the problems with the inflationary models are known and the final theory will be something similar that may include or exclude certain aspects of the currect accelerated expantion theory.
Heres just a quick quote from the Robert H. Brandenberger paper you presented:
quote:
String theory may lead to a natural resolution of some of the puzzles of inflationary cosmology.
And I read the rest and didn't see how you just determined that the BBT is somehow debunked?
In this quote...
quote:
During
the slow-rolling period of the inflationary Universe, the constraint equation takes on a very simple form
and implies that and are proportional.
He implies there is an inflation.
It seems, of course with my very early understanding(just finished my first semester of physics), that you have interpreted said paper to your liking. You took many things out of context, you can't just quote conclusions to papers and not take into context the rest of the paper.
Could you point to something in that paper which says that the BBT is debunked??

All great truths begin as blasphemies
I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by ICANT, posted 06-15-2008 10:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by IamJoseph, posted 06-16-2008 1:50 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 62 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2008 7:54 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 63 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2008 8:55 PM onifre has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 57 of 273 (471386)
06-16-2008 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by onifre
06-16-2008 12:48 PM


Re: Update Your Model
quote:
If you can't determine where the center is, then how could you simply say it is there?
I didn't see how you concluded that...
Its like one quark within one of our brain cells cannot determine another quark in our toe cells. Here, size does matter.
quote:
- there is no alternative to creationism
Creation as an unguilded mechanism, Yes(i.e. Quantum fluctuations etc...) However, religiously based creationism(i.e. Christianity etc...) or plainly as a God, then No. There are many alternatives to that, like Quantum fluctuations...
Creationism per se is not religiously based, at least not the OT version. This allows any transcendent premise one likes, to apply. The point I made was that there is no alternative to an external impacting, and this also has to be transcendent, with full cognition, of what is created. Anything random or accidental cannot apply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by onifre, posted 06-16-2008 12:48 PM onifre has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3689 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 58 of 273 (471387)
06-16-2008 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by onifre
06-16-2008 1:33 PM


Re: Update Your Model
quote:
How so if we still have the fact that the Universe is expanding?
This commonplace saying should be re-examined. The universe is not expanding - it is in expansion. The former infers there is somewhere else to expand to - which violated the finite factor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by onifre, posted 06-16-2008 1:33 PM onifre has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 273 (471412)
06-16-2008 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
06-14-2008 1:08 AM


Re: Update Your Model
ICANT,
ICANT writes:
I like these assumptions without explanation. But I can't insert God without proving He exists.
There is evidence for the BB but however there is no evidence for a God.
ICANT writes:
It seems like you are trying to tell me there is no problem with the BBT. But I keep finding scientist that say there is a lot of problems with the BBT.
There are issues with a lot of scientific theories but those theories are based on "tangible evidence" however "supernatural phenomena" is not. Science tries to explain the universe using matter that we can observe.
To bad we could not hold a conversation in the chat room sometime.
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks
To believe in "Force" is to believe in Love, Wisdom, Intelligence, Force, Agility, and Charm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 06-14-2008 1:08 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ICANT, posted 06-17-2008 9:58 AM Force has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 273 (471414)
06-16-2008 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by IamJoseph
06-16-2008 4:30 AM


Re: Update Your Model
IAJ,
IAJ writes:
The universe is not expanding, but rather, the original point is becoming larger.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
I bet this will make quote of the month....
Please provide references for your claim so I can read all about this phenomena.
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks
To believe in "Force" is to believe in Love, Wisdom, Intelligence, Force, Agility, and Charm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by IamJoseph, posted 06-16-2008 4:30 AM IamJoseph has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024