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Author Topic:   Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 158 of 177 (471162)
06-15-2008 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Wumpini
06-13-2008 10:15 AM


Re: Should we move on to the fossil record?
You and others on this website are helping the case for these “weaknesses” people by proclaiming that science has answers where they do not ...
... I think that we are in agreement that the field of abiogenesis is an area of science where there are many unanswered questions.
Make up your mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Wumpini, posted 06-13-2008 10:15 AM Wumpini has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 159 of 177 (471165)
06-15-2008 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Wumpini
06-13-2008 5:59 PM


Re: The Cambrian Explosion
Phyla is a grouping of animals based on a general body plan. Once again the statement made by the “weaknesses” people is correct. During this period, basically all of the different body structures that are in existence today quickly came into the fossil record.
Utterly wrong.
The Cambrian, for example, contains no fish, no amphibians, no reptiles, no mammals, no birds ... are those not "different body structures that are in existence today"?
However, the phylum Chordata is represented by, for example, Pikia gracilens. Which looked something like this:
The fact of the matter is that the fossil record does not support either the theory of “phyletic gradualism” or the theory of “punctuated equilibrium” during the period of the Cambrian explosion.
But my dear Wumpini, it is consistent with both. They both show the deepest taxonomic divisions occurring in the earliest times, and since the record for those times is so sparse, it could scarcely distinguish between them.
An estimated 50 to 100 phyla appear explosively at the base of the Cambrian. Fossil evidence suggesting their common ancestry is not found in Precambrian rocks.
Your information is sixty years out of date and counting.
It is not difficult to find out about Precambrian fauna, I suggest that you do so.
---
You are familiar with neither the terms you are using, nor with the subject matter under discussion. I am not surprised that creationists find it easy to bamboozle you with this stuff. But this is no reason why science teachers, who should know better, should be required to bamboozle children.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Wumpini, posted 06-13-2008 5:59 PM Wumpini has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Wumpini, posted 06-15-2008 7:57 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 311 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 170 of 177 (471309)
06-15-2008 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Wumpini
06-15-2008 7:57 PM


Re: The Cambrian Explosion
The “strengths and weaknesses” people say nothing about the Cambrian containing fish or mammals. They say that basically all of the different “body structures” or plans quickly came into the fossil record.
And this is not true. Because birds, for example, have a common "body structure" which does not appear in the Cambrian.
You are entirely correct. Both the “phyletic gradualism” and the “punctuated equilibrium” trees should show these “deepest taxonomic divisions” coming into existence suddenly during the Cambrian explosion. The problem is that neither theory explains why these divisions come into existence in the first place. That is the point! It is a major unanswered question!
Huh?
By a little process we call "evolution". One species splits off from another species. Look at the diagrams.
When it happens, the production of phyla looks like speciation (which it is) there's nothing special about it except in retrospect.
Since you are contradicting me and my sources, I suggest that you provide the evidence showing this "common ancestry."
The fossils are too scanty to trace any particular line of descent, but there are certainly fairly undifferentiated bilaterians in the Precambrian. To go better than that, we require the techniques of molecular phylogeny.
You have given nothing in this post to indicate anyone is being bamboozled other than children and yourself ...
... and all those scientists who've spent their lifetimes studying a subject of which you have just begun to scratch the surface based on your acquaintance with inaccurate children's textbooks.
They are being taught as scientific fact something that lacks support in the fossil record.
They are being taught lots of things as scientific fact that are not supported in the fossil record. Such as that the Sun is hot.
The fossil record does not support the traditional “tree of life.” If you believe that it does then provide the evidence.
The fossil record also does not contradict the "tree of life". The fact that it does not allow us to confirm every detail of it from the fossils alone would be of significance only if the tree of life was meant to be constructed based on the fossils alone, rather than on all the evidence, such as morphology and genetics.
By pretending that it is, or that it should be, based on only a proportion, sometimes quite a small proportion, of the evidence, creationists have managed to obscure their own understanding of biology, without, of course, making the slightest impression on scientists, who know better.
If we were to draw the tree of life based solely on fossils, we should have to leave off entirely at least seven (I'm still counting) of the 36 living animal phyla, because there are no fossils of these phyla, in the Cambrian or anywhere else!
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Wumpini, posted 06-15-2008 7:57 PM Wumpini has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Wumpini, posted 06-16-2008 5:32 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

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