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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 151 of 479 (471434)
06-16-2008 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Legend
06-16-2008 7:13 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
so you're saying that Jesus lied when he told the man what to do to gain eternal life!
Had the man been able to do what Jesus said I am sure He would have honored his Word.
But people had been trying to inherit eternal life for several thousand years and was not able to do so.
BTW Inherit and gaining is two different words also.
Legend writes:
err. no..the first man in the garden didn't know good from evil until he ate the fruit (Gen 3:22). Not only God didn't protect him, he set him up for it! Don't you read your Bible ?
The man in the garden had one rule, don't eat, if you eat you die.
He did not need to know good from evil.
If you will examine what I said you will see that I stated that the child was protected until he came to know good and evil as the man in the garden WHEN HE ATE THE FRUIT.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Legend, posted 06-16-2008 7:13 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Legend, posted 06-17-2008 3:52 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 152 of 479 (471435)
06-16-2008 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Legend
06-16-2008 7:13 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
so you're saying that Jesus lied when he told the man what to do to gain eternal life!
Had the man been able to do what Jesus said I am sure He would have honored his Word.
But people had been trying to inherit eternal life for several thousand years and was not able to do so.
BTW Inherit and gaining is two different words also.
Legend writes:
err. no..the first man in the garden didn't know good from evil until he ate the fruit (Gen 3:22). Not only God didn't protect him, he set him up for it! Don't you read your Bible ?
The man in the garden had one rule, don't eat, if you eat you die.
He did not need to know good from evil.
If you will examine what I said you will see that I stated that the child was protected until he came to know good and evil as the man in the garden WHEN HE ATE THE FRUIT.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Legend, posted 06-16-2008 7:13 PM Legend has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 153 of 479 (471485)
06-17-2008 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Legend
06-16-2008 6:28 PM


Re: the God-Father
Legend writes:
??!! to transfer this to my 'guy-playing-football-breaks-window' example I would have to chase after the window breaker with a baseball bat, beat him black & blue until he yells "I surrender" and then and only then would I forgive him!
Not at all.
You could attempt to convince the window breaker that his actions are evil;, to show the damage, to show the injuries, to show the waste. A person can be brought to realise that evil resides in them without resorting to the measures you describe. Of course a person can refuse to be convinced and will be eventually beaten to death by the house owner. The window breaking will cease one way or the other; either you'll be convinced to stop or the house owners patience will run out and he'll come an beat you to a pulp.
Gods sovereignty and reign are the prime concern here - not your life or where you spend it in eternity. Do you not think that Gods just wrath will be as satisfied pouring itself out on you in Hell as his love would be pouring itself out on you 'in Heaven'. Wherever you end up Legend, God is satisfied.
-
what a cute way of saying 'if you don't believe in God he's going to break your legs'!
It's not 'if you don't believe in God'. It's 'if you won't believe God'
-
There is nothing to be 'put up' anything for the forgiveness. God gives it for free, there being nothing one has to do to get it
Oh goody! So noone has to accept Jesus as their saviour then! Phew that's a relief, I thought i was going to have to do that before I'm forgiven. Thanks for clearing that up.
Seeing as no one can accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour without Gods action enabling them to accept that, I can't see any place for your doing anything. His action enabling you is his doing. You do nothing.
Besides, it's after the point of your being saved that you believe in Christ as your saviour. Maybe only a moment after, even.
Deciding your going to accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour off your own bat won't achieve a person anything. No more than me calling myself Dr. iano makes me a doctor.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Legend, posted 06-16-2008 6:28 PM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 154 of 479 (471619)
06-17-2008 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ICANT
06-16-2008 9:10 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
so you're saying that Jesus lied when he told the man what to do to gain eternal life!
ICANT writes:
Had the man been able to do what Jesus said I am sure He would have honored his Word.
are you implying that Jesus told the man to love god and his neighbour knowing full well that he couldn't do it?
let's leave aside the fact that this would make Jesus an evil, teasing so and so for a while. Why then wouldn't Jesus tell the man what he could do, i.e. to accept him as his saviour?
ICANT writes:
But people had been trying to inherit eternal life for several thousand years and was not able to do so.
says who? and who would they inherit from?

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ICANT, posted 06-16-2008 9:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 06-17-2008 7:56 PM Legend has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 155 of 479 (471720)
06-17-2008 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Legend
06-17-2008 3:52 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
Why then wouldn't Jesus tell the man what he could do, i.e. to accept him as his saviour?
That is not what he wanted. He wanted to inherit eternal life.
Legend writes:
says who? and who would they inherit from?
Inherit means to come into posession as a right or divine portion.
He wanted to be saved just like you do if God exists. You want God to save you just because you think He created you and owes it to you as a divine right or obligation on God's part.
Man is not saved that way.
God does not owe you or anyone anything.
He provided a way man can receive a free full pardon.
If you don't want it you don't have to take it. Your choice.
Ephe 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eternal life is a free gift.
You can't buy it or earn it.
But I am sure if he could have met the qualifications Jesus put to him he would have honored His Word.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Legend, posted 06-17-2008 3:52 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Legend, posted 06-18-2008 7:31 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5007 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 156 of 479 (471781)
06-18-2008 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by ICANT
06-17-2008 7:56 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
Why then wouldn't Jesus tell the man what he could do, i.e. to accept him as his saviour?
ICANT writes:
That is not what he wanted. He wanted to inherit eternal life.
what are you on about? The man asked Jesus what to do in order to gain eternal life!
Jesus told him to love God and love his neighbour as himself.
Are you saying that this is not the way to gain eternal life, i.e. Jesus lied?
Are you saying that Jesus told him what to do knowing full well that he couldn't do it, i.e. Jesus intentionally misled him?
Are you saying that there's nothing one can do to gain eternal life, i.e. Jesus lied?
Just what exactly are you saying?!
ICANT writes:
Eternal life is a free gift. You can't buy it or earn it.
So when Jesus tell the man what to do to earn it, he's lying, according to you.
ICANT writes:
But I am sure if he could have met the qualifications Jesus put to him he would have honored His Word.
So you're saying that eternal life is a free gift but Jesus setup some more conditions specifically for this man. Was he teasing him or something?
You keep contradicting yourself and the Bible. I don't think you know what you believe in. You just want to believe in something, that's all.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ICANT, posted 06-17-2008 7:56 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 157 of 479 (471882)
06-18-2008 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ICANT
06-15-2008 10:52 PM


Re: Responsibility
I am not going to reply to any of this message and I will explain why.
How convenient!
Straggler asks
Consider the following:
If I were a ruler and I both created laws and decided upon the method of communicating those laws to my subjects - I personally would not condemn anyone to eternal damnation who was genuinely ignorant of those laws.
I might give a relatively minor punishment to demonstrate that the guilty party should make better effort to learn the law of the land in future. But I would also take some reponsibility for communicating my own laws to those who need to know them.
I certainly would not dish out the same punishment to those that are ignorant as those that willfully and knowingly break the law. I think this would be morally unjustified.
  • Would this make me an evil in your view?
  • Would this make me unjust in yor view?
    If not - how do you reconcile these answers with the answers you give with regard to your supposedly good and just God? Am I, in the example above, more or less just than your God?
  • ICANT writes
    So in light of all that Maybe God does have a way of conveying to people what they need to do.
    Given the number of people of faiths other than your own in the world (each equally convinced that you are as wrong about your beliefs as they as you believe they are about theirs) this seems a somwhat random, inefficient and pointles method of information distribution.
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 143 by ICANT, posted 06-15-2008 10:52 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 158 by ICANT, posted 06-18-2008 10:31 PM Straggler has replied

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 158 of 479 (471900)
    06-18-2008 10:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 157 by Straggler
    06-18-2008 8:23 PM


    Re: Responsibility
    Straggler writes:
    Given the number of people of faiths other than your own in the world (each equally convinced that you are as wrong about your beliefs as they as you believe they are about theirs) this inefficient and pointles method of information distribution.
    That is truly a terrible condition, and waste of resources.
    Problem is we are not all right. In fact most would disagree with me.
    All who do not believe in being born again by the grace of God through faith without works.
    That is problably 90% of religion disagree with me.
    But even many of those who disagree with me God uses them to spread the word.
    Straggler writes:
    How convenient!
    I gave you an example of what happened. God took care of that situation and I am sure He takes care of all others the same way so there is nothing to talk about that subject.
    God Bless,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 157 by Straggler, posted 06-18-2008 8:23 PM Straggler has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 159 by Straggler, posted 06-19-2008 11:12 AM ICANT has not replied

      
    Straggler
    Member
    Posts: 10333
    From: London England
    Joined: 09-30-2006


    (1)
    Message 159 of 479 (471940)
    06-19-2008 11:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 158 by ICANT
    06-18-2008 10:31 PM


    Re: Responsibility
    I gave you an example of what happened. God took care of that situation and I am sure He takes care of all others the same way so there is nothing to talk about that subject.
    One woman who felt compelled to go to your church for whatever reason........? One woman who no doubt was raised at least fully aware of, even if not part of, the Christian message and community.
    One woman.
    That is your answer to the eternal suffering of billions?
    What about the millions of Hindus who are never going to randomly decide to wander into your church?
    How does God give them a choice?
    Why does a good, just and omnipotent God use such unjust and inefficient methods of making people aware of a choice which will determine their eternal fate? Why does a good, just and omnipotent God effectively condemn billions of people to eternal damnation for no reason other than ignorance?
    If I were in Gods position I would ensure that everyone knew the choice I had put before them and that they had the opportunity to make that choice.
    That would seem only fair given the dire consequences of ignorance.
    Am I more just and more good than your God?
    Such a God is not good and not just. Think about it ICANT. How can you defend this and justify it to yourself? I don't understand.
    Or of course maybe your God is just not there at all. Then it all makes sense....................?
    Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 158 by ICANT, posted 06-18-2008 10:31 PM ICANT has not replied

      
    Legend
    Member (Idle past 5007 days)
    Posts: 1226
    From: Wales, UK
    Joined: 05-07-2004


    Message 160 of 479 (472249)
    06-21-2008 12:20 PM


    *bump* for ICANT
    Legend writes:
    Why then wouldn't Jesus tell the man what he could do, i.e. to accept him as his saviour?
    ICANT writes:
    That is not what he wanted. He wanted to inherit eternal life.
    To which I replied:
    quote:
    The man asked Jesus what to do in order to gain eternal life!
    Jesus told him to love God and love his neighbour as himself.
    Are you saying that this is not the way to gain eternal life, i.e. Jesus lied?
    Are you saying that Jesus told him what to do knowing full well that he couldn't do it, i.e. Jesus intentionally misled him?
    Are you saying that there's nothing one can do to gain eternal life, i.e. Jesus lied?
    Just what exactly are you saying?!
    well, do you believe in Jesus or not?

    "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

    Replies to this message:
     Message 161 by Legend, posted 06-29-2008 8:11 AM Legend has not replied
     Message 162 by Phat, posted 08-05-2008 4:06 PM Legend has replied

      
    Legend
    Member (Idle past 5007 days)
    Posts: 1226
    From: Wales, UK
    Joined: 05-07-2004


    Message 161 of 479 (473439)
    06-29-2008 8:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Legend
    06-21-2008 12:20 PM


    Re: *bump* for ICANT
    your reluctance to reply leads me to conclude that despite calling yourself a Christian you don't really accept what Jesus said. Another Christian in name only.

    "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by Legend, posted 06-21-2008 12:20 PM Legend has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 162 of 479 (477648)
    08-05-2008 4:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 160 by Legend
    06-21-2008 12:20 PM


    Advocate of personal responsibility
    Hi Legend.
    I have noticed that Christian arguments fall into one of perhaps three (maybe more) camps.
    1) Saved by Grace....nothing we ever could do would be enough, hence it is what He did for us once and for all.
    2) All are saved thanks to God...but then were we ever "lost"to begin with? Our behavior is what ultimately matters and it is our responsibility to do our best. God gave us a brain. (and a conscience)
    3) Religion is mans attempt to find God. Its all a story anyway. Just live life!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 160 by Legend, posted 06-21-2008 12:20 PM Legend has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 163 by iano, posted 08-05-2008 6:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 164 by Legend, posted 08-06-2008 6:22 PM Phat has replied

      
    iano
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 163 of 479 (477657)
    08-05-2008 6:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
    08-05-2008 4:06 PM


    Re: Advocate of personal responsibility
    1) Grace (an exclusively Christian position)
    2) Works (all world Religions operate thus, including works based Christianity)
    3) I'm not sure that this is a Christian position

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by Phat, posted 08-05-2008 4:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Legend
    Member (Idle past 5007 days)
    Posts: 1226
    From: Wales, UK
    Joined: 05-07-2004


    Message 164 of 479 (477708)
    08-06-2008 6:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
    08-05-2008 4:06 PM


    Re: Advocate of personal responsibility
    Hi Phat,
    I have to say I agree with iano in Message 163. It's either grace or works. Paul advocated grace through faith, Jesus advocated works. The third position you mentioned is more of an agnostic/atheist position.
    I always found it interesting when Christians try to shoehorn the philosophy of the originator of their religion into that of its founder.
    what's your take on this?

    "We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 162 by Phat, posted 08-05-2008 4:06 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 165 by Phat, posted 08-07-2008 6:09 AM Legend has replied
     Message 166 by iano, posted 08-07-2008 6:24 AM Legend has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 165 of 479 (477746)
    08-07-2008 6:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 164 by Legend
    08-06-2008 6:22 PM


    Re: Advocate of personal responsibility
    Legend writes:
    It's either grace or works. Paul advocated grace through faith, Jesus advocated works.
    I guess it all depends on several things, really. For one thing, how seriously should we take Paul/Saul? The churches who maintain that the Bible is inerrant and is the exclusive Word Of God (or WOG for short)
    would obviously place the words of Paul almost on the same level as the Gospels. To them, the Bible was written by humans yet was authored through the humans by the Holy Spirit.
    On the opposite extreme, many (such as Brian, our resident atheist Theologian) believe that the Bible is fallible at best, written through the eyes of Bronze Age goat herders who had nary a clue about the reality of our current day...and that Holy Spirit authorship is an unproven and thus tenuous position to take.
    On what does one base their belief? Many would accuse a majority of Christians to quotemine scriptures, for example. Well so what if we do? The argument is not one of science and rationality exclusively, after all. It does have an element of faith and belief involved in it.
    And so allow me to quote a few famous scriptures that many churches and Pastors use to support the faith that they advocate.
    1) Phil 2:12-13-- Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.......Now, does God interact and commune with humans or not? This is a question of belief. It can never be proved one way or the other.
    2) Phil 1:3-6-- I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. ....in other words, some of us ask ourselves if Gods Grace...indeed His Holy Spirit works through us at times or whether this is a Sky Daddy myth perpetuated by organized religion.
    I myself personally believe that God does interact and commune through humans...many of whom are not religious. Again, this is a faith/belief issue and cannot be provable one way or another.
    I am not entirely settled on the issue, either. For one thing, IF Christians who did have the Holy Spirit were thus ambassadors of WOG, why would they so often be caught acting so foolishly and be so resistant to scientific logic and secular rationality? Would the Spirit of God let them down that much?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 164 by Legend, posted 08-06-2008 6:22 PM Legend has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 167 by Legend, posted 08-07-2008 5:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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