On the causes of sexual orientation

I really think it's good stuff, Taz, very interesting. I'll be using it as a good reference in this discussion. Thanks for sharing it. Are you suggesting that gay sheep might make good partners for gay men? Wedding bells, maybe, out in the pasture? The last time I checked I wasn't. But I do drop a lot of acid.”HMEdited by Hoot Mon, : No reason given.

After taking out my hand gun and shot the pillow several times, I'm ok now...In science, especially biological and medical, it is considered unethical to study and experiment on humans without having a firm grasp on the controlled and the uncontrolled conditions. So, most of the time researchers have to study animal first before they could move on to human subjects.Don't be intentionally and unreasonably thick-headed, Hoot. You know damn well the implications of studies like these. While there isn't a single "gay gene" like people have suggested in the past, there are certainly combinations of genes that could cause certain prevalent behavioral patterns such as the human sexuality (or more specifically the sexual preference) under certain biological and/or environmental conditions. In other words, bigots like you who have insisted on homosexuality being a choice now have to either acknowledge the implications of the overwhelming evidence for a biological cause.It helps to think of this in terms of computer programming. Some programs may behave slightly different than what the programmer intended. Most of the time, it's not because of a single line of code but rather a combination codes that could form unexpected protocols or subroutines.

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I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

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btw: I already know what causes heterosexual orientation, and without it no pecking penis will ever find its proper place where babies are made.

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Well why don't you run out and publish your findings. I'd be willing to bet that there's a Nobel Prize out there for the first person to provide a conclusive explanation for that one.On the other hand, you seem to think that sexual intercourse is the only way to conceive a child. Your ignorance in that area strongly suggests that your professed knowledge of what causes heterosexual orientation might not be quite as certain as you claim.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Why isn't anybody following their nose in this? Wouldn't the biological, physiological, mechanism lie in the receptors and mechanisms for responding to pheromones?I am a male and the female scent is very influencial (for lack of finding the right word). OK, it's been a long time, but when my ex and I were still intimate, her scent would very nearly shut my neo-cortex down completely. At the same time, I've been in close proximity to other men over the years and I have always found their smell to be unpleasant, even repulsive.Believe it or not, when my former therapist tried to get me to use on-line dating, it just went completely against the grain. I think it was in part because the photos told me absolutely nothing about those women, including how they smelled. I'm not being weird here; we are much more sensitive and responsive to smells than most people realize.Why couldn't homosexuality be due in part -- perhaps in large part -- to a response to pheromones?Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.

They also recorded "In the Navy" Does that mean all sailors are gay?
You are implying Guilt by association.Edited by bluescat48, : No reason given.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

I saw an article about homosexuals brain's being structured like those of the opposite sex that came out a few days ago. There appears to be even more evidence about the strength of biological causes for homosexuality.
Gay brains structured like those of the opposite sex (NewScientist

It most assuredly is in Drosophila melanogaster aka the common fruit fly. There is a mutant where the males only sniff out other males and try to mate with them. If work weren't so busy right now I'd go find a link....

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

I like the metaphor. And I suppose you're right. But whatever it is that causes homosexuality is still unknown to science, as I have argued before.
”HMEdited by Hoot Mon, : No reason given.

I am certain I know what caused my heterosexuality. I can't speak for women and their heterosexuality, but I can say for sure that I got it from my Y chromosome. If another man has a Y chromosome, just as I do, then I don't know why he prefers to have sex with men instead of women. It is up to him to explain why this is NOT an aberration of the normal male condition, and also to explain why it deserves access to heterosexual institutions.”HM

Thanks, Deftil. Interesting discovery indeed. However, it made me ask if the brains of musicians, for example, would show roughly the same kind of differences to the brain's of non-musicians. Call it "exercising the brain muscle," which of course is voluntary.”HM

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I am certain I know what caused my heterosexuality. I can't speak for women and their heterosexuality, but I can say for sure that I got it from my Y chromosome. If another man has a Y chromosome, just as I do, then I don't know why he prefers to have sex with men instead of women. It is up to him to explain why this is NOT an aberration of the normal male condition, and also to explain why it deserves access to heterosexual institutions.

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”HM

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"Abberations" as you put it still are the result of some sort of causal phenomenon, which are often very complex. Heterosexuality in the crude sense certainly isn't Y-chromosome-dictated... after all, women are heterosexual. Neither is attraction to men (again, women). It's a specious hypothesis at best.As much as I'd like to address topic, "why should homosexuals have access to heterosexual institutions?", the matter is a moral question, not a scientific one. If you're interested in this problem, it may be best to start a new thread.

Oh but please do! I'd be very interested in anything that scientifically links gays to mutants.”HM

I heard someone else made a similar comment in response to this actually. I simply don't know enough about neurology myself to say with certainty that these brain patterns can't be a developed result of being gay. The article does mention however:

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... Savic and her colleague, Per Lindstrm, chose to measure brain parameters likely to have been fixed at birth.

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"That was the whole point of the study, to show parameters that differ, but which couldn't be altered by learning or cognitive processes," says Savic.

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so the claim they are making is that it's very likely that these patterns were set by birth.

Links to my heterosexuality: XY chromosomal configuration ”> testicles ”> testosterone ”> heterosexuality. Can't speak for either women or gays, though.”HM

From Message 23:

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Taz writes:

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It helps to think of this in terms of computer programming. Some programs may behave slightly different than what the programmer intended. Most of the time, it's not because of a single line of code but rather a combination codes that could form unexpected protocols or subroutines.

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Hoot Mon writes:

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I like the metaphor. And I suppose you're right. But whatever it is that causes homosexuality is still unknown to science, as I have argued before.

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From Message 24:

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subbie writes:

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On the other hand, you seem to think that sexual intercourse is the only way to conceive a child. Your ignorance in that area strongly suggests that your professed knowledge of what causes heterosexual orientation might not be quite as certain as you claim.

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Hoot Mon writes:

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I am certain I know what caused my heterosexuality. I can't speak for women and their heterosexuality, but I can say for sure that I got it from my Y chromosome. If another man has a Y chromosome, just as I do, then I don't know why he prefers to have sex with men instead of women. It is up to him to explain why this is NOT an aberration of the normal male condition, and also to explain why it deserves access to heterosexual institutions.

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How you can even imagine that you know what causes your heterosexuality and at the same time deny knowledge of what causes homosexuality is an enigma. The very fact that some men with a Y chromosome are homosexual would at least suggest to any intelligent person that the mere presence of a Y chromosome isn't enough to guarantee heterosexuality. Combine that with the fact that women lack a Y chromosome but most of them are heterosexual, and it seems virtually impossible that heterosexuality is caused by the presence of a Y chromosome.At least I can say one thing for you, HM; you continue to amuse.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat