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Author Topic:   front loading: did evos get it backwards
Force
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 164 (472288)
06-21-2008 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
06-15-2008 3:03 PM


randman,
randman writes:
The fact that contrary to ND, we don't see a gradual evolving of new genes as new traits are acquired but that all these types of genes pre-existed the theoritical evolution of plant and animal lineages just cannot be, eh?
What about the evolution between H.Neanderthals and H.Sapien? What was lost? I also went to mention that new genes are not aquired through "aquired traits" they are aquired through mutation.
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 06-15-2008 3:03 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2008 4:53 PM Force has replied
 Message 96 by randman, posted 06-23-2008 11:38 PM Force has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 77 of 164 (472291)
06-21-2008 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Force
06-21-2008 4:45 PM


Neanderthals & sapiens
What about the evolution between H.Neanderthals and H.Sapien? What was lost? I also went to mention that new genes are not aquired through "aquired traits" they are aquired through mutation.
It doesn't look like Neanderthals evolved into H. sapiens. The two lines split something like 500,000 years ago and Neanderthal just took a long time going extinct.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 4:45 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:08 PM Coyote has replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 164 (472296)
06-21-2008 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Coyote
06-21-2008 4:53 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
Coyote,
Coyote writes:
It doesn't look like Neanderthals evolved into H. sapiens. The two lines split something like 500,000 years ago and Neanderthal just took a long time going extinct.
www.wikipedia.org writes:
H. neanderthalensis lived from about 250,000 to as recent as 30,000 years ago. Also proposed as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis: there is ongoing debate over whether the 'Neanderthal Man' was a separate species, Homo neanderthalensis, or a subspecies of H. sapiens.[23] While the debate remains unsettled, evidence from mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal DNA sequencing indicates that little or no gene flow occurred between H. neanderthalensis and H. sapiens, and, therefore, the two were separate species.[24] In 1997, Dr. Mark Stoneking, then an associate professor of anthropology at Pennsylvania State University, stated: "These results [based on mitochondrial DNA extracted from Neanderthal bone] indicate that Neanderthals did not contribute mitochondrial DNA to modern humans . Neanderthals are not our ancestors." Subsequent investigation of a second source of Neanderthal DNA supported these findings.[25] However, supporters of the multiregional hypothesis point to recent studies indicating non-African nuclear DNA heritage dating to one mya,[26] although the reliability of these studies has been questioned.[27]
Human evolution - Wikipedia
NewScientist writes:
Neanderthals may have also boasted the genes for language, Trinkaus says. Last year, researchers discovered that Neanderthals shared a version of a gene called FOXP2 with humans.
Neanderthals speak out after 30,000 years | New Scientist
NewScientist writes:
"There has been a consensus that the modern human mind turned on like a light switch about 50,000 years ago, only in Africa," says Hopkinson. But the putatively modern traits accompanying the change, such as abstract art, the use of grindstones and elongated stone blades, and big game hunting began to accumulate in Africa from 300,000 years ago, he says. "It was the same in Europe with Neanderthals, there was a gradual accumulation of technology." If Homo sapiens developed human traits gradually, then why not Neanderthals?
Page has gone | New Scientist
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2008 4:53 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2008 5:21 PM Force has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 79 of 164 (472302)
06-21-2008 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Force
06-21-2008 5:08 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
Nice quotations.
The fact still remains Neanderthal did not evolve into H. sapiens.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:08 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:24 PM Coyote has replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 164 (472303)
06-21-2008 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Coyote
06-21-2008 5:21 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
coyote,
how is it a fact when we carry the same foxp2 gene? The earth being flat was a fact at one time too.
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : No reason given.

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2008 5:21 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2008 5:35 PM Force has not replied
 Message 82 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 5:38 PM Force has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 81 of 164 (472308)
06-21-2008 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Force
06-21-2008 5:24 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
Take a look at the following image:
Note that Neanderthal is not an ancestor to H. sapiens. Both descended from an earlier form, H. heidelbergensis.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:24 PM Force has not replied

  
Organicmachination
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 105
From: Pullman, WA, USA
Joined: 12-30-2007


Message 82 of 164 (472309)
06-21-2008 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Force
06-21-2008 5:24 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
Just because we carry the same Foxp2 gene, it doesn't mean that Neandarthals directly evolved into Humans.
For one, there is evidence of Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens Sapiens living together, and perhaps even mating together. If HN. evolved into HSS., then neither could be extant alongside the other. Populations evolve, not individuals, and if HN. evolved directly into modern humans, then by the time we came to be, HN. would not exist as a species.
The only explanation, and the most logical one at that, is that the Foxp2 is a shared derived characteristic of both species. Both species evolved from a single common ancestor which also had the same gene.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:24 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:48 PM Organicmachination has replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 164 (472313)
06-21-2008 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Organicmachination
06-21-2008 5:38 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
organicmachination,
organicmachination writes:
Just because we carry the same Foxp2 gene, it doesn't mean that Neandarthals directly evolved into Humans.
but it is evidence that we are the same species.
organicmachination writes:
If HN. evolved into HSS., then neither could be extant alongside the other. Populations evolve, not individuals, and if HN. evolved directly into modern humans, then by the time we came to be, HN. would not exist as a species.
if the evolution started 200,000 - 300,000 years earlier that is not true. I would actually expect if evolution occured that they would rival each other hence natural selection.

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 5:38 PM Organicmachination has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 5:52 PM Force has replied
 Message 86 by Coyote, posted 06-21-2008 5:58 PM Force has not replied

  
Organicmachination
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 105
From: Pullman, WA, USA
Joined: 12-30-2007


Message 84 of 164 (472314)
06-21-2008 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Force
06-21-2008 5:48 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
but it is evidence that we are the same species.
Mice and Humans share the same Stra8 gene. Are mice and humans the same species?
if the evolution started 200,000 - 300,000 years earlier that is not true. I would actually expect if evolution occured that they would rival each other hence natural selection.
Yes, you can argue that. Doesn't make it more probable. From current science, we see that both neanderthals and we evolved from a common ancestor, as elucidated by coyote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:48 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:56 PM Organicmachination has replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 164 (472316)
06-21-2008 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Organicmachination
06-21-2008 5:52 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
Organicmachination,
There is no evidence to suggest that heidelbergenesis had the foxp2 gene.
organicmachination writes:
Mice and Humans share the same Stra8 gene. Are mice and humans the same species?
It is a communication gene that is only seen between h.neanderthals and h.sapiens. It is not a gene that is simply shared by 100 different species.
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 5:52 PM Organicmachination has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 5:58 PM Force has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 86 of 164 (472317)
06-21-2008 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Force
06-21-2008 5:48 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
Force, perhaps you should study up a bit more on fossil man and evolution. You are making some very basic errors.
The Wiki article on Neanderthal would be a good start:
Neanderthal - Wikipedia

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:48 PM Force has not replied

  
Organicmachination
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 105
From: Pullman, WA, USA
Joined: 12-30-2007


Message 87 of 164 (472318)
06-21-2008 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Force
06-21-2008 5:56 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
Just so you know, mice also have the Foxp2 gene.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 5:56 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 6:07 PM Organicmachination has replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 164 (472322)
06-21-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Organicmachination
06-21-2008 5:58 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
organicmachination,
the foxp2 gene that h.neanderthals and h.sapiens have is the same type of foxp2 gene.
wikipedia.org writes:
The FOXP2 protein sequence is highly conserved. Similar FOXP2 proteins can be found in songbirds, fish, and reptiles such as alligators.[13][14] Aside from a polyglutamine tract, human FOXP2 differs from chimp FOXP2 by only two amino acids, mouse FOXP2 by only 3 amino acids, and zebra finch FOXP2 by only 7 amino acids.[15][16][16] Some researchers have speculated that the two amino acid differences between chimps and humans led to the evolution of language in humans.[15] Others, however, have been unable to find a clear association between species with learned vocalizations and similar mutations in FOXP2.[13][14] Both human mutations occur in an exon with no known function. It is also likely, based on general observations of development and songbird results, that any difference between humans and non-humans would be due to regulatory sequence divergence (affecting where and when FOXP2 is expressed) rather than the two amino acid differences mentioned above.[3]
wikipedia.com writes:
A recent extraction of DNA from Neanderthal bones indicates that Neanderthals had the same version (allele) of the FOXP2 gene that is known to play a role in human language.
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 5:58 PM Organicmachination has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 6:12 PM Force has replied

  
Organicmachination
Member (Idle past 5709 days)
Posts: 105
From: Pullman, WA, USA
Joined: 12-30-2007


Message 89 of 164 (472323)
06-21-2008 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Force
06-21-2008 6:07 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
So you're saying that the Foxp2 gene in neanderthals and humans was exactly the same, down to every last amino acid, loci on the genome, effect, and epigenetic properties?
Can you quote any sources to prove it to me?
Also, look at this link:
Foxp2 - Protein - NCBI
Either way, even if both the species had the same gene exactly, it still wouldn't prove we're the same species. It would simply prove that the gene diverged without mutation and was conserved as humans and neanderthals evolved from an ancestral species.
This shows the Foxp2 genes and haplotypes of hundreds of species.
Edited by Organicmachination, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 6:07 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Force, posted 06-21-2008 6:15 PM Organicmachination has replied
 Message 94 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2008 5:15 PM Organicmachination has not replied
 Message 95 by ramoss, posted 06-23-2008 6:09 PM Organicmachination has not replied

  
Force
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 164 (472325)
06-21-2008 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Organicmachination
06-21-2008 6:12 PM


Re: Neanderthals & sapiens
..bump
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit
Edited by Force, : edit

Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 6:12 PM Organicmachination has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Organicmachination, posted 06-21-2008 7:48 PM Force has replied

  
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