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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage
Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 196 of 519 (472351)
06-21-2008 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Rrhain
06-21-2008 9:29 PM


Blather
Just one example of your blather:
Rrhain writes:
Gays don't have the right not to be tortured because they are gay, but torturing someone because of race is called "lynching" and is illegal.
Yeesh!
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Rrhain, posted 06-21-2008 9:29 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Rrhain, posted 06-21-2008 10:13 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 200 by Taz, posted 06-21-2008 11:03 PM Fosdick has replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 197 of 519 (472357)
06-21-2008 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Rrhain
06-21-2008 9:29 PM


One of us is blind, and it ain't me
Rrhain writes:
If your argument is that strong, if you have done your homework, if you have the evidence required to justify your assertions, then it should be no trouble at all for you to respond to each point I've made.
But you won't look at the evidence. You can't see the evidence. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE EVIDENCE! Perhaps the key question here is WHY you can't handle the evidence. It suggests to me that you have a strong bias against the traditional majority. You want not only to steal the apples but also to upset the cart. And yet you want the traditional majority to say it's OK for you to "marry" your sweetheart, Ralph.
Aside from your bogus comparison between your sad condition and that of blacks, you don't have any meat your sandwich. It's just opinionated fluff. And you need to understand, for the sake of your own gay movement, that "marriage" is reserved for a civil union between a man and woman. Go get your own term for your same-sex civil union, but stay out of the matrimonial business of heterosexuals.
Why is that too much to ask, if you get to have your civil unions and all the legal protection?
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Rrhain, posted 06-21-2008 9:29 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Rrhain, posted 06-21-2008 10:38 PM Fosdick has replied
 Message 202 by bluescat48, posted 06-21-2008 11:26 PM Fosdick has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 198 of 519 (472358)
06-21-2008 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Fosdick
06-21-2008 9:34 PM


Hoot Mon writes:
quote:
quote:
Gays don't have the right not to be tortured because they are gay, but torturing someone because of race is called "lynching" and is illegal.
Yeesh!
Do you have an argument or not?
You can take your gay child and have him sent off to have electrodes attached to his genitals, shown porn, and given electric shocks in an attempt to "cure" him. If we were to do it to anybody else, we would call it "torture" but since we're doing it to gays, it's called "reparative therapy."
Kids have DIED while under this treatment.
Other "treatments" over the years have included hysterectomy, castration, and lobotomy.
Do you have an argument, Hoot Mon?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Fosdick, posted 06-21-2008 9:34 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Fosdick, posted 06-21-2008 11:03 PM Rrhain has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 199 of 519 (472362)
06-21-2008 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Fosdick
06-21-2008 10:05 PM


Hoot Mon responds to me:
quote:
But you won't look at the evidence.
But you haven't presented any. Despite repeated requests to provide specifics, you haven't given a single example of how anybody would be affected by same-sex marriage. You've tossed out a scare-tactic regarding Social Security, but you haven't provided any actual evidence. The Feds at the GAO and the State of California have both looked into the economic impact of same-sex marriage and both have found that it would actually be a financial benefit.
So what else do you have?
quote:
You can't see the evidence. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE EVIDENCE!
Um, you do realize that Nicholson got nailed in that role when he said that, yes? You sure you want to invoke him?
quote:
You want not only to steal the apples but also to upset the cart.
What, precisely has been stolen?
Be specific. See, this is where you would provide details about how the neighbor's marriage affects you.
And if it doesn't, this would be where you would provide your justification for why gay people are to be prevented from exercising the fundamental right of marriage.
Remember: Marriage is a fundamental right (Loving v. Virginia). Fundamental rights cannot be abridged on the basis of sexual orientation (Romer v. Evans, Lawrence v. Texas). So unless you're going to say that those cases were wrongly decided, we're at a bit of a loss as to how marriage gets to be denied on the basis of sexual orientation when it cannot be on the basis of race.
quote:
And yet you want the traditional majority to say it's OK for you to "marry" your sweetheart, Ralph.
And when was it declared that I was gay? I know I haven't mentioned it. Are you asking me on a date?
And you wonder why you keep getting tagged as a bigot.
quote:
And you need to understand, for the sake of your own gay movement, that "marriage" is reserved for a civil union between a man and woman.
And yet, every single court that has looked at the issue for nigh on the past 20 years has disagreed, all the way back to Baehr v. Miike in Hawaii. This is Flies Only point to Catholic Scientist: The Hawaiian law clearly had no mention of the sex of the participants in a marriage and since the Hawaiian Constitution protects equality under the law specifically on the basis of sex, there was no legal justification to deny marriage to people of the same sex.
The people, then, got together and amended the Constitution to define marriage as being between one man and one woman before the HSC released their ruling.
It's what was tried here in California: Those who want discrimination in marriage tried to petition the CSC to stay their decision until after the election so that they could have a chance to amend the Constitution to define marriage as being between one man and one woman.
The Fourteenth Amendment is crystal clear: Equal treatment under the law. With marriage as a fundamental right...no, not "interracial marriage," not "same-sex marriage," but simply "marriage"...and with fundamental rights unable to be abridged on the basis of sexual orientation, but what justification do you conclude that gays are not allowed to marry?
quote:
get your own term for your same-sex civil union, but stay out of the matrimonial business of heterosexuals.
Just how does the neighbor's marriage affect you?
Be specific.
quote:
Why is that too much to ask, if you get to have your civil unions and all the legal protection?
And you wonder why you keep getting tagged a bigot? Unable to justify your own argument, you think you can rile me by accusing me of being gay, as if I should be ashamed of being thought gay.
And how many times do you need to be reminded that "separate but equal" is unconstitutional? The only way to guarantee equality is to have a single contract for all. Since "marriage" is the current contract, the simplest thing to do is to leave that contract alone and recognize that it applies to all.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Fosdick, posted 06-21-2008 10:05 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Fosdick, posted 06-22-2008 11:30 AM Rrhain has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 200 of 519 (472364)
06-21-2008 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Fosdick
06-21-2008 9:34 PM


Re: Blather
Hoot writes:
Rrhain writes:
Gays don't have the right not to be tortured because they are gay, but torturing someone because of race is called "lynching" and is illegal.
Yeesh!
Hoot, I know some people that were sent to these camps and had to go through some of the procedures that Rrhain mentioned. Very unpleasant experiences.

I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Fosdick, posted 06-21-2008 9:34 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Fosdick, posted 06-22-2008 12:54 PM Taz has not replied

Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 201 of 519 (472366)
06-21-2008 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Rrhain
06-21-2008 10:13 PM


Shocked genitals
Rrhain writes:
You can take your gay child and have him sent off to have electrodes attached to his genitals, shown porn, and given electric shocks in an attempt to "cure" him. If we were to do it to anybody else, we would call it "torture" but since we're doing it to gays, it's called "reparative therapy."
One thing I'm pretty sure of is that if you sent a black man off to have electrodes attached to his genitals, shown porn, and given electric shocks in an attempt to "cure" him, he isn't going to turn white.
Later on everything else.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Rrhain, posted 06-21-2008 10:13 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Rrhain, posted 06-22-2008 1:21 AM Fosdick has not replied
 Message 204 by Jaderis, posted 06-22-2008 1:36 AM Fosdick has replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 202 of 519 (472373)
06-21-2008 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Fosdick
06-21-2008 10:05 PM


Re: One of us is blind, and it ain't me
But you won't look at the evidence. You can't see the evidence. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE EVIDENCE! Perhaps the key question here is WHY you can't handle the evidence. It suggests to me that you have a strong bias against the traditional majority. You want not only to steal the apples but also to upset the cart. And yet you want the traditional majority to say it's OK for you to "marry" your sweetheart, Ralph.
What evidence. You have supplied none. How does gay marriage affect the marriage of John & Jane? How does gay marriage affect social security?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Fosdick, posted 06-21-2008 10:05 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Fosdick, posted 06-22-2008 1:10 PM bluescat48 has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 203 of 519 (472386)
06-22-2008 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Fosdick
06-21-2008 11:03 PM


Hoot Mon responds to me:
quote:
One thing I'm pretty sure of is that if you sent a black man off to have electrodes attached to his genitals, shown porn, and given electric shocks in an attempt to "cure" him, he isn't going to turn white.
So I was right. You don't have an argument.
Tell ya what: Why don't you come here, we'll tie some electrodes to your genitals, show you porn, and see how long it takes to make you gay.
You willing to put your money where your mouth is?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Fosdick, posted 06-21-2008 11:03 PM Fosdick has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 204 of 519 (472389)
06-22-2008 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by Fosdick
06-21-2008 11:03 PM


Re: Shocked genitals
One thing I'm pretty sure of is that if you sent a black man off to have electrodes attached to his genitals, shown porn, and given electric shocks in an attempt to "cure" him, he isn't going to turn white.
What makes you think that this torture makes gay people become straight?
What is your argument here?

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Fosdick, posted 06-21-2008 11:03 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2008 1:38 AM Jaderis has replied
 Message 218 by Fosdick, posted 06-22-2008 1:20 PM Jaderis has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 519 (472390)
06-22-2008 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Jaderis
06-22-2008 1:36 AM


belated
Happy belated birthday, Jaderis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Jaderis, posted 06-22-2008 1:36 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Jaderis, posted 06-22-2008 2:22 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 206 of 519 (472392)
06-22-2008 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Fosdick
06-18-2008 9:00 PM


Re: Don't civil unions do enough for legal purposes?
Wouldn't you think a cure might be welcomed relief for them?
No.
Because I would rather live my life out in the open and die than live my life hidden and afraid and die anyway.
I find it rather insulting (but it's OK I can get over it) that you presume to speak for minorities and how we "must" feel.
What would be a welcome relief is for people like you to just die off and not infect new generations of children with your mental deficiencies. No need for a "cure."
I don't need nor want to be "cured." I do not have a disease.
If there was a "cure" for homosexuality right now I would "choose" to remain a lesbian.
Of course, this "cure" (if it had to do with genetics or hormones) would most likely apply to heterosexuality as well.
What would you choose? Why would the fact that a "choice" appeared make your argument different? Why would it only apply to the "other?"

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Fosdick, posted 06-18-2008 9:00 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2008 3:42 AM Jaderis has not replied
 Message 220 by Fosdick, posted 06-22-2008 1:29 PM Jaderis has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 207 of 519 (472393)
06-22-2008 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Hyroglyphx
06-22-2008 1:38 AM


Re: belated
Happy birthday to you too! I hope it was a good one. Mine was the big 30! O_o

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2008 1:38 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2008 3:20 AM Jaderis has not replied

Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 208 of 519 (472395)
06-22-2008 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Fosdick
06-19-2008 11:31 AM


Re: Should the law marry dead people, too?
As far as I know, "mixed-faith marriages" can conjoin members of opposite sexes and produce babies. And, as far as I know, that is the expressed purpose of marriage: to conjoin members of opposite sexes and produce babies if they want to. Furthermore, as far as I know, marriage was never meant to be sanctioned by the state unless it was between a man and a woman.
As far as you know, was any marriage supposed to be sanctioned by the state?

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Fosdick, posted 06-19-2008 11:31 AM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Fosdick, posted 06-22-2008 11:48 AM Jaderis has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 519 (472401)
06-22-2008 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Jaderis
06-22-2008 2:22 AM


Re: belated
Happy birthday to you too! I hope it was a good one. Mine was the big 30!
Thanks... Mine was 31... And I'm totally going through an early midlife crisis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Jaderis, posted 06-22-2008 2:22 AM Jaderis has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 519 (472402)
06-22-2008 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Jaderis
06-22-2008 2:17 AM


Re: Don't civil unions do enough for legal purposes?
If there was a "cure" for homosexuality right now I would "choose" to remain a lesbian.
Can I ask somewhat of a personal question regarding your sexuality? Feel free not to answer if it is too personal or if you simply don't feel comfortable answering.
As a lesbian, I imagine you've had these feelings for members of the same sex since you were a little girl, even if you couldn't fully understand them.
Was there ever a time you felt attracted to members of the opposite sex? If so, was it fleeting? Because I think everyone has the ability to, whether gay or straight, recognize if someone is attractive. It doesn't mean they desire them, it just means they can recognize why someone of the opposite sex would be attracted to them. If you were ever attracted to a man, was it more like that?
I guess what I'm trying to ask is, do you have the ability to understand how a straight woman could be attracted to a man, even though you may not feel that same desire within you?
As well, in lesbian relationships, there seems to be some very defined roles in the form of submissive or dominant roles. (Not always, I'm sure, but enough to notice.) How are these roles assigned? I don't mean that they are contrived, but I guess I want to know if they are based off of someone's natural personality.
I guess one thing that never made sense to me about homosexuality is that I noticed that in many, many cases, a male will be attracted to an effeminate male, and a female will be attracted to a female with more masculine attributes.
So when I was younger, I remember asking myself, "Well, if they are attracted to qualities that predominate the opposite sex, why then the attraction to the same sex?"
It made me wonder if some of them had some latent, unresolved issues with members of the opposite sex. For instance, when I was in the Navy I worked with a lesbian. A really cute and sweet girl. Because she was in the military, she didn't broadcast her sexuality, but in a safe group of people, myself included, she felt trusting enough to divulge that information.
Anyhow, we would spend hours together on post. Obviously in that time we talked about a lot of different things. It turns out that she had a string of bad relationships with men, her brother and father died when she was young, etc. Later on she ended up sleeping with some of our fellow co-workers -- two men.
I began to wonder if she wasn't actually a lesbian, but was actually just hurt by members of the opposite sex, and so she contrived this alter-ego, if you will, to compensate for the pain she felt.
Before I go on, I am not suggesting that you suffer from some delusion, so please don't think I am suggesting that. What I am asking is, have you ever met a lesbian where you in fact questioned their actual sexuality? Did you ever suspect that maybe they were straight, but were for whatever reason, hurt or let down by men, and sought comfort with women?
Does that make any sense? If not I can clarify.
And look here, sister. These aren't loaded questions. I'm just being inquisitive. I'm just trying to understand your point-of-view.
Again, if it is too personal, feel free not answering it.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Jaderis, posted 06-22-2008 2:17 AM Jaderis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Rrhain, posted 06-22-2008 5:05 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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